Boiling Water taps. What and where to buy.

[ProDave]

So it's nearly time to choose a boiling water tap for the kitchen.  I want one that does conventional hot and cold water single lever mixer tap (i.e takes hot water for that from the DHW supply not from the boiling tank) And as a separate function (but in the same tap) dispenses boiling water from it's tank.

 

I started looking at probably the best known brand Quooker, and started seeing prices over £1K.  Sorry WAY too much.

 

Howdens are offering their own Lamona brand 3 in 1 boiling water tap for £400.  That's more the price, but I would be worried about spares going into the future.

 

Others have trodden this path, so what did you buy, why, for how much and from where?

 

Oh and are these eligible for a VAT claim, or are they classed as an "appliance" and exempt from the VAT claim?

 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

First off, yes, they are eligible for the VAT claim, as long as they are integrated, so they supply hot, cold and boiling water.

 

We bought a Itho Daalderop tap and boiler, which is very good indeed.  Stainless steel, very well engineered, neat boiler unit that just slides under the base unit (just unclip the kick board to get at it) and has so far served up many thousands of cups of tea.  The snag is that Itho Daalderop have stopped marketing this tap in the UK (I have a very strong suspicion that it's now marketed by Grohe) and the price of the Grohe is way more than we paid for the Itho (IIRC it was around £600).  Also, Grohe (and, it seems, Itho) have changed the design of the boiler, and the new one no longer slides under a unit.  This seems a retrograde step, as the only downside to the boiler we have is that it does make the unit it's under very slightly warm.  This is useful for the under sink unit as it will dry out anything damp in there, but it does tend to make the gel-like dishwasher tablets a bit sticky (we switched to the solid ones to get around this).

 

Assuming that the Grohe Red is really the same basic unit as the Itho we have, then I'd recommend it, but it's a lot more expensive to buy here, not sure why.  It seems to be cheaper from the Netherlands, on the Itho Daalderop site, but is still expensive, at around £900 or so.

[Stones]

Make sure you go for a true boiling tap, i.e. can deliver water at 100C. Experience of visiting houses with boiling taps that top out below 100C is scummy tea. Anecdotal but worth bearing in mind.

[Jeremy Harris]

3 minutes ago, Stones said:

Make sure you go for a true boiling tap, i.e. can deliver water at 100C. Experience of visiting houses with boiling taps that top out below 100C is scummy tea. Anecdotal but worth bearing in mind.

 

 

Good point.  For reference, the Itho, and I assume the Grohe Red, deliver water that is at 100°C, as the boiler keeps water at around 105°C, according to the spec.  It runs at high pressure (it comes with a combined pressure reducing valve and pressure relief valve in the supply, that needs connecting to a drain via the supplied tundish), which allows it to keep water that hot without it boiling.

[scottishjohn]

thats normal in the S/E of england  anyway .LOL

 

[ProDave]

Interresting point about a vent and a drain via a tundish.  That is something I had not considered and will be somewhat harder now.  The sink unit it will go in is already installed and plumbed.  The only access I now have to a drain it the 40mm PVC waste coming into the sink unit through the back panel and I am pretty sure that is PVC not ABS (that can take boiling water)  So I am not sure I now have access to a suitable drain without removing the sink unit (which will mean some un plumbing) and then re plumbing the waste up from the 110mm that goes into the floor.

 

Are there any that don't need a blow off and drain via a tundish?

[Zed]

We got ours from here, cheapest we could find, no issues at all, if any problems grohe send out one of there technicians. Got a fair bit of of grohe stuff from here, really pleased with the boiling water tap, now 3 years old and not skipped a beat. See below for link to current best offer.

 

https://www.plumbingforless.co.uk/kitchen/kitchen-taps/grohe-red-kitchen-taps/grohe-red-mono-pillar-tap-arched-spout-and-single-boiler-4ltrs-chrome-30060-000

[Jeremy Harris]

4 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Interresting point about a vent and a drain via a tundish.  That is something I had not considered and will be somewhat harder now.  The sink unit it will go in is already installed and plumbed.  The only access I now have to a drain it the 40mm PVC waste coming into the sink unit through the back panel and I am pretty sure that is PVC not ABS (that can take boiling water)  So I am not sure I now have access to a suitable drain without removing the sink unit (which will mean some un plumbing) and then re plumbing the waste up from the 110mm that goes into the floor.

 

Are there any that don't need a blow off and drain via a tundish?

 

 

Not sure, TBH.  I bought the Itho because it seemed to be good value for an all stainless steel tap, with a boiler that fitted under the plinth.  This is what ours looks like (been in for five years now):

 

 

And this is what the combined PRedV/PRV and tundish looks like:

 

 

[ProDave]

Just downloaded and read the instructions for the Lamona tap, it is this one if anyone is interested https://www.howdens.com/kitchens/kitchen-sinks-and-taps/kitchen-taps/lamona-arroscia-3-in-1-chrome-right-angled-hot-water-tap-obj-sku-family-25352773#Fitting

 

That does need a drain, but the instructions show the tundish mounted high in the sink unit and connected via a bit of hose to a washing machine drain point into the drain.  No mention of it needing to be ABS pipe rather than PVC which I thought was a requirement for potentially boiling water discharge?

 

Putting it into a washing machine drain point puts it above the sink trap so no need for a waterless trap.

 

If that really is acceptable then I can do that. But I will need a 2 bowl sink waste kit with two washing machine connection points (one for the boiling water tap and 1 for the dishwasher)

[Ralph]

23 minutes ago, Stones said:

Make sure you go for a true boiling tap, i.e. can deliver water at 100C. Experience of visiting houses with boiling taps that top out below 100C is scummy tea. Anecdotal but worth bearing in mind.

 Apparently Quooker have the patent on boiling taps so only they can sell ones that actually do 100c. Others are capable but you need fiddle with the settings. Got this from someone who was moaning about their tap not making proper custard.

[ProDave]

The Lamona instructions have a section on "calibrating" the temperature.

 

I am interested to see what someone like @Nickfromwales says to discharging the tundish output (which is potentially boiling water) via a hose into a washing machine connection point with no mention of the pipework needing to be ABS.

[Jeremy Harris]

1 hour ago, Ralph said:

 Apparently Quooker have the patent on boiling taps so only they can sell ones that actually do 100c. Others are capable but you need fiddle with the settings. Got this from someone who was moaning about their tap not making proper custard.

 

 

Ours definitely delivers water at 100°C, it's marked "100°C" next to the boiling tap handle, and the spec for the boilers states that it runs at 105°C.  It doesn't seem to have any connection with Quooker AFAICS, so I'm not convinced that it's only the Quooker units that can deliver water this hot.

 

 

It's a mixed blessing having water at 100°C coming out.  I've had to adjust the flow rate, using the built-in valve under the sink, to try and reduce the amount of spitting from the tap.  Even so, you need to hold the cup or pan close to the tap, as the water starts to actually boil as the pressure drops as it leaves the spout.  It's still really handy, having boiling water on demand, but it does need a bit of care to not get scalded by splashes.  The safety feature that's built in, that means a spring loaded button has to be held in to allow the boiling tap handle to turn, doesn't help, as it takes a while to get the knack of doing this whilst holding the cup or pan high up under the nozzle.  Let the cup or pan drop a bit, and there's a risk of getting splashed with boiling water.

[ProDave]

In that respect the Quooker safety mechanism is better.  you press a ring down twice then turn it to dispense boiling water, something easy to do with 1 hand.

[ProDave]

What about this bargain basement? https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Instant-Hot-Boiling-Water-Kitchen-Tap-3-in-1-Cold-Hot-Water-Heating-Unit/192074602857?hash=item2cb889d969:g:pSkAAOSwi0RXzKr8

 

only 98 degree water which probably explains the lack of any vent needed.

[Construction Channel]

You need to add the £42 filter if you want the warrantee. 

[Jeremy Harris]

17 minutes ago, Construction Channel said:

You need to add the £42 filter if you want the warrantee. 

 

I checked into this with Itho UK, as they supplied an expensive cartridge filter with the tap, that needed replacing every 6 months.  They passed me on to a technical chap in the Netherlands, who was very helpful.  He made it clear that the filter was there mainly to protect the heating element in the boiler from hard water, as it included a phosphate dosing capability, as well as the normal activated carbon to adsorb stuff that might affect the taste.  I asked him if there would be any problem with running the unit on soft, or softened, water, without the supplied filter and he confirmed that this would be OK.  The warranty thing is really because these boilers run way above scale formation temperature (typically around 55 to 60°C I believe), and so would very quickly fur up if used in a hard water area without the filter.

[Construction Channel]

I was going by the item description on ebay.

Which I just re read and it looks like it's only a 1 Yr warrantee on the boiling unit if the filter is installed but a 10yr on the tap itself. 

 

I'd never considered drinking softened water if I'm honest. We've always had a separate hard drinking water tap at home 

[Jeremy Harris]

18 minutes ago, Construction Channel said:

I'd never considered drinking softened water if I'm honest. We've always had a separate hard drinking water tap at home 

 

 

Not a bad overall decision to make, it depends very much on just how much drinking ion exchange softened water changes your daily sodium intake, and how that effects the balance between sodium and calcium ion intake overall.  There isn't a lot of sodium in softened water from moderately hard water areas, and it was something I looked at closely, as I've been on a low sodium diet for over 30 years now.  I added up my average daily sodium intake, allowing for 3 or 4 mugs of tea made from softened water (at the water hardness level we have here) and found that the additional sodium from the softened water about the same as that from the milk I put in my tea.  Overall, four mugs of tea made with softened water added up to about 4% to 5% of the NHS recommended daily sodium intake.  I'd caveat this by saying that our water isn't super hard, so our softener doesn't exchange lots of calcium ions for sodium ions, and for those who have very hard water it may be that the sodium ion concentration could be a bit higher.  To put this into perspective, 1 packet of crisps contains around 140 to 150mg of salt.  For our water, that is equivalent to about 1.2 litres of softened water.

[joth]

2 hours ago, JSHarris said:

The safety feature that's built in, that means a spring loaded button has to be held in to allow the boiling tap handle to turn, doesn't help, as it takes a while to get the knack of doing this whilst holding the cup or pan high up under the nozzle.  Let the cup or pan drop a bit, and there's a risk of getting splashed with boiling water

 

This is the reason we've decided to have the boiling tap separate to the main kitchen mixer tap. The boiling tap can have a slightly smaller curve and be a bit more task focused / less splashy.

 

 

4 hours ago, Zed said:

We got ours from here, cheapest we could find, no issues at all, if any problems grohe send out one of there technicians. Got a fair bit of of grohe stuff from here, really pleased with the boiling water tap, now 3 years old and not skipped a beat. See below for link to current best offer.

 

https://www.plumbingforless.co.uk/kitchen/kitchen-taps/grohe-red-kitchen-taps/grohe-red-mono-pillar-tap-arched-spout-and-single-boiler-4ltrs-chrome-30060-000

That's a really good deal. Almost thinking of ordering it now just to keep in store ready for when we need it.

Shame they supply the big blue filter with it - ideally I'd not have that (as we're having a whole house softener) and save on the expense of that too.

 

I notice that's the old model and there's a Red 2.0 version too. Not entirely sure what the difference is.

 

The Tech guide manuals on that site aren't very easy to follow (illustrations only, with no labels. Ikea at its worst). However I have just noticed it states it operates at 99ºC 

https://www.plumbingforless.co.uk/files/ww/merlin/GROHE Red Mono Boiling Water Taps - Technical Guide.pdf

 

3 hours ago, Ralph said:

 Apparently Quooker have the patent on boiling taps so only they can sell ones that actually do 100c. Others are capable but you need fiddle with the settings. Got this from someone who was moaning about their tap not making proper custard.

 

Yeah I've been told this a few times too and never actually found another with >=100ºC in the tech spec. 

 I was under the impression it's something to do with WRAS rules not allowing 100ºC boiler to be connected to the mains supply for risk of malfunction sending boiling water back out the inlet, and Quooker having some patent to get around that. /shrug

 

2 hours ago, ProDave said:

In that respect the Quooker safety mechanism is better.  you press a ring down twice then turn it to dispense boiling water, something easy to do with 1 hand.

 

Another safety feature of the Quooker is the boiling water is aerated, making scolding much harder. The rep at GDL was happily passing his hand right under it without problem.

 

[Construction Channel]

I suppose the last 2 responses lead to the question. 

 

Could anyone reccomend a stand alone boiling tap? 

 

[Redoctober]

For what it is worth, we have this one installed - a 3 in 1 tap which produces water at 98c - Been in use for a year now and have had no complaints whatsoever regarding quality of tea as a result of it not being 100c. We have changed the filter as per requirements and they come in at around £40

 

https://www.just-perrin.co.uk/1937-perrin--rowe-polaris-3-in-1-instant-hot-water-kitchen-mixer-tap-4435-p.asp

[Jeremy Harris]

20 minutes ago, joth said:

Yeah I've been told this a few times too and never actually found another with >=100ºC in the tech spec. 

 I was under the impression it's something to do with WRAS rules not allowing 100ºC boiler to be connected to the mains supply for risk of malfunction sending boiling water back out the inlet, and Quooker having some patent to get around that. /shrug

 

 

 

I'm not convinced of this at all, as our tap very definitely delivers water at 100°C , has this engraved on the tap itself and the spec states that the boiler operates at 105°C .  There's no doubt at all that the water coming out is boiling, probably as a result of the pressure reduction as superheated water comes out of the nozzle.  Our unit is WRAS approved and was supplied by a UK supplier.

[joth]

13 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

Our unit is WRAS approved and was supplied by a UK supplier

But it's curious that your model is no longer available, and the apparent replacement (Grohe Red and Red 2.0) clearly states it only operates at 99ºC (spec). Makes me wonder if there was patent infringement?

I don't care much which we get, I truly doubt I could tell the difference of 1ºC. But I can see if I do get persuaded to go Quooker for the various other nice features I'll no doubt want to try and convince myself of 100ºC tea superiority to try and mask the £1000 sting in my pocket

 

 

Edited October 25, 2019 by joth

[Nickfromwales]

4 hours ago, ProDave said:

The Lamona instructions have a section on "calibrating" the temperature.

 

I am interested to see what someone like @Nickfromwales says to discharging the tundish output (which is potentially boiling water) via a hose into a washing machine connection point with no mention of the pipework needing to be ABS.

Building regs will always bow to manufacturers instructions. 
If you fit it as per the MI’s you’re good to go ( as they’ve already sought approval prior to releasing the product ). 

Edited October 25, 2019 by Nickfromwales
Poxy corrective text ?

[Nickfromwales]

FYI, the amount of hot water ( volume vs temp ) is a mere ‘spike’ in the terms of the ‘capability to discharge under duress’ for most modern plastics. 
The real problem starts when you’ve got 2-300L of roasting hot water to potentially be discharged. That’s when plastics can melt, seals become compromised.

In reality, a piddly little boiling water tap is of near zero consequence in that equation.