Living with my mistakes: 1. Cladding

[ToughButterCup]

Early in the build, before I became a nasty, snarling cynical bastard of a self-builder, I allowed the people who worked for us to get away with very unprofessional work. This episode (the first of a good few, I suspect)  is about how to cope with a wall whose vertical and lateral profiles bear more than a passing resemblance to a banana. Everyone winces when I point it out. Everyone. Even that polite Mr @Stones when he dropped in (for a laugh)

 

Can't take a joke? Shouldn'a started then should I.

 

Here's the picture:

Its our front wall; capped off with some Evalon V and a capping strip. Here's a diagram - a vertical profile.

 

 

As you see from the picture, we have yet to clad our front wall. The drawing is a first stab at what to do.

 

The problem is simple. The wall is so 'bent' that any cladding fitted closely  to the wall at the bottom would end up 'overshooting' the capping strip at the top of the wall.

 

So I propose to fit a window cill (- like) piece of wood at the top of the wall but  under the bottom of the capping, and to protect that 'cill' with some form of metal or plastic profile. The end in mind is to create some wriggle room in which to compensate for the sloppy wall construction.

The red line in the drawing is the intended metal or plastic profile.

• Is my design proposal sensible? If so,
• what type of profile should I use?

[scottishjohn]

could  you  strap it out with batons to get it all back to vertical --using packers etc 

and only start cladding when you have a vertical and straight frame work to attach  cladding to .

 or maybe you hard render it all  instead

. a good guy should be able to make it straight with cement render base then finish of your choice 

[ToughButterCup]

35 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

could  you  strap it out with batons to get it all back to vertical --using packers etc 

and only start cladding when you have a vertical and straight frame work to attach  cladding to .

 [...]

 

Yes.

The intention is to create about some 'reference' batons (4): perfectly vertical and level across the front of the wall (over about 10 m)

The questions are

• What should the 'profile' (that protects the top of the cladding)  be made of? (plastic / metal / lead?) and
• how far in front of the cladding should the cill / profile project? (10mm / 20mm / doesn't matter ?)

Ian

[Onoff]

Could you vary the batten thickness from "nothing" or say 5mm minimum up?

[jamieled]

I am in the process of sorting something similar for our cladding, albeit for  slightly different reason. As we have 1.5 storeys, we need a firestop at half height, and I have selected to insert a profiled cill/flashing on top of the firestop, to drain anything behind the 1st floor cladding.

 

I'm getting some manufactured by planwell. They will stick out in front of the cladding by about 35mm. This is sort of arbitrary, because the cills/flashings are manufactured in fixed dimensions but I figured it should be enough.

[Declan52]

What about something as simple as a length of guttering. You can attach the gutter to a batten at whatever thickness suits so the gutter sits under the lip of your roof material. 

Then batten out to near enough plumb and put your cladding on as normal. You could chamfer the top length of cladding so it appears to slide behind the gutter to still look nice. Would be a simple relatively cheap solution and it doesn't really matter if it collects any water or not.

 

[joe90]

@AnonymousBosch what version of CAD is that your using?, I really like it. ?. How far out is your wall vertically?, would you notice 10mm out of vertical? I like the idea of packing battens out to be “level”. How long is the green stuff on your roof overhanging the wall? If it’s long enough just run cladding up under it (we need more accurate measurements).

[Onoff]

11 minutes ago, joe90 said:

what version of CAD is that your using?

 

Paddington 2

[ToughButterCup]

11 minutes ago, jamieled said:

[...]

I'm getting some manufactured by planwell. 

[...]

 

Thanks for the link (here). Exactly what I was looking for.

 

4 minutes ago, joe90 said:

@AnonymousBosch what version of CAD is that your using?, I really like it. ?. How far out is your wall vertically?, would you notice 10mm out of vertical? I like the idea of packing battens out to be “level”. How long is the green stuff on your roof overhanging the wall? If it’s long enough just run cladding up under it (we need more accurate measurements).

 

CAD package: Mark 1 eyeball and remaining fingers.

Vertical cockup : 35mm (at least) - an error of merely 10mm would be wonderful - we could manage that. 

 

The green stuff - (Evalon V) rests on an overhang of about 47mm or so.

Since the battens are 25mm, and the cladding is 18mm (43mm) and the error is 35mm we are looking at a 75mm difference at the top.

 

Oh dear, never mind what a shame.

Know what? I'm learning reeeeally fast, like reallly reeeaaallyy fast.

 

[ToughButterCup]

36 minutes ago, Onoff said:

Could you vary the batten thickness from "nothing" or say 5mm minimum up?

 

We will have to do that anyway. I'm saying that to get the battens perfectly level and straight up and down, I'm going to have to notch some battens to get past a few  individual blocks.

 

The blocks might well have been laid by a drunken gorilla. But, there's no point whatsoever in fussing about that now.

[scottishjohn]

if you can do it i would keep batons at 45-50m and  then pack

--so then you know no problems with fixings of cladding 

[ToughButterCup]

Do you mean block out the battens to (say) 50mm anyway?

So, with an 18mm cladding board, that would mean 68mm from the front of (some of) the wall.....

[Oz07]

This must happen all the time on commercial sites. I bet theres a metal system like then use internal for dry lining? @nod?

That jumbo stud they run up the walls can get over any problems

[Sue B]

Can you not extend the roofie bit out to cope with the additional width of the battening / cladding?  

Edited to say - is that what the second picture is suggesting?

Edited October 1, 2019 by Sue B

[scottishjohn]

1 hour ago, AnonymousBosch said:

Do you mean block out the battens to (say) 50mm anyway?

So, with an 18mm cladding board, that would mean 68mm from the front of (some of) the wall.....

I was presuming you were using that thickness --  35mm ones then

-but wouldn,t want to go too thin 

[ToughButterCup]

1 hour ago, Sue B said:

Can you not extend the roofie bit out to cope with the additional width of the battening / cladding?  

[...]

 

If only, @Sue B. That would be have been so much easier.

[Construction Channel]

4 hours ago, AnonymousBosch said:

 

Yes.

The intention is to create about some 'reference' batons (4): perfectly vertical and level across the front of the wall (over about 10 m)

The questions are

• What should the 'profile' (that protects the top of the cladding)  be made of? (plastic / metal / lead?) and
• how far in front of the cladding should the cill / profile project? (10mm / 20mm / doesn't matter ?)

Ian

 

- lead

- 20mm

 

 

[nod]

2 hours ago, Oz07 said:

This must happen all the time on commercial sites. I bet theres a metal system like then use internal for dry lining? @nod?

That jumbo stud they run up the walls can get over any problems

You could use Gypliner System 

It won’t rust or rot Set out Vertically at 300 centres It would save a lot of time and effort packing timber batons out 

[SteamyTea]

8 hours ago, AnonymousBosch said:

What should the 'profile' (that protects the top of the cladding)  be made of? (plastic / metal / lead?

GRP

[Stones]

10 hours ago, AnonymousBosch said:

Early in the build, before I became a nasty, snarling cynical bastard of a self-builder, I allowed the people who worked for us to get away with very unprofessional work. This episode (the first of a good few, I suspect)  is about how to cope with a wall whose vertical and lateral profiles bear more than a passing resemblance to a banana. Everyone winces when I point it out. Everyone. Even that polite Mr @Stones when he dropped in (for a laugh)

 

Can't take a joke? Shouldn'a started then should I.

 

Here's the picture:

Its our front wall; capped off with some Evalon V and a capping strip. Here's a diagram - a vertical profile.

 

 

As you see from the picture, we have yet to clad our front wall. The drawing is a first stab at what to do.

 

The problem is simple. The wall is so 'bent' that any cladding fitted closely  to the wall at the bottom would end up 'overshooting' the capping strip at the top of the wall.

 

So I propose to fit a window cill (- like) piece of wood at the top of the wall but  under the bottom of the capping, and to protect that 'cill' with some form of metal or plastic profile. The end in mind is to create some wriggle room in which to compensate for the sloppy wall construction.

The red line in the drawing is the intended metal or plastic profile.

• Is my design proposal sensible? If so,
• what type of profile should I use?

 

Only laughed after I'd left! Youngest still talks about his digger driving experience though, so if nothing else your build has inspired the next generation!

 

In answer to the question, battening out using packers to get it plumb before cladding sounds like the best option assuming you don't want to explore the option of a render finish.  You should be able to take string lines at intervals from one end to the other to assess how far out of true it is and therefore if packing out is viable. The downside is that any packing is going to show itself at the door reveal and perhaps the window reveals as well. I can't remember what other external finishes you have planned.  If packing out for a continuous run of cladding isn't going to work, and it has to be timber, is there scope to vary the style - switch from vertical to horizontal half way down the wall, using the break to step out the lower half slightly? If you were prepared to accept that kind of visual break, how about stone cladding , dry stone walling up to halfway, timber above?  Yes you would need another rain cap but might work and allow you to disguise things more easily.

 

I had aluminium cills folded and painted by

 

https://www.mspcladding.co.uk/

 

and had them quote for a complete bespoke rainwater system which was half the price I could get anywhere else.  I'm sure they could fold something and paint to whatever your specifications are for the rain cap.  I found them very helpful and more than willing to cater for small orders.

[joe90]

12 minutes ago, Stones said:

The downside is that any packing is going to show itself at the door reveal and perhaps the window reveals as well.

 

I don’t think so, you can see the taper of the door reveal in the photo, so the door looks vertical and the wall NOT. @AnonymousBosch You mention Evalon V and a capping strip, can you not get another capping strip, same colour, to come out over your timber cladding. You don’t want too many different materials as it will make it scrappy. Your diagram does not show membrane and capping strip (just being picky?).

Edited October 1, 2019 by joe90

[Stones]

2 minutes ago, joe90 said:

 

I don’t think so, you can see the taper of the door reveal in the photo, so the door looks vertical and the wall NOT. @AnonymousBosch You mention Evalon V and a capping strip, can you not get another capping strip, same colour, to come out over your timber cladding. You don’t want too many different materials as it will make it scrappy.

 

Should have been clearer, apologies, I meant in terms of deeper reveals.  

[ToughButterCup]

8 hours ago, Stones said:

 

Only laughed after I'd left! Youngest still talks about his digger driving experience though, so if nothing else your build has inspired the next generation!

 

In answer to the question, battening out using packers to get it plumb before cladding sounds like the best option assuming you don't want to explore the option of a render finish.  You should be able to take string lines at intervals from one end to the other to assess how far out of true it is and therefore if packing out is viable. The downside is that any packing is going to show itself at the door reveal and perhaps the window reveals as well. I can't remember what other external finishes you have planned.  If packing out for a continuous run of cladding isn't going to work, and it has to be timber, is there scope to vary the style - switch from vertical to horizontal half way down the wall, using the break to step out the lower half slightly? If you were prepared to accept that kind of visual break, how about stone cladding , dry stone walling up to halfway, timber above?  Yes you would need another rain cap but might work and allow you to disguise things more easily.

 

I had aluminium cills folded and painted by

 

https://www.mspcladding.co.uk/

 

and had them quote for a complete bespoke rainwater system which was half the price I could get anywhere else.  I'm sure they could fold something and paint to whatever your specifications are for the rain cap.  I found them very helpful and more than willing to cater for small orders.

 

Thanks for your post .Extremely helpful, lots to think about.

[ToughButterCup]

9 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

GRP

 

I was thinking that a Tupperware flashing would be cheaper, lighter and less hassle. Thanks @SteamyTea

[SteamyTea]

Tupperware is polyethylene, it breaks down in light very quickly.

Best avoided.