READERS BEWARE. RANT. Architects and other Building related Pen Pushers.

[ProDave]

^^ When we sold a previous house, it came to light that our driveway, from a side road, was in fact leading onto an unadopted private road that we did not have any right to use.  There was nothing to say it was private, and the highways had resurfaced it last time the other roads in the village were done. But no, it was an unadopted road and we had no right to use it.  Solved iirc with an indemnity policy.  Oh and I was never told any of that when I bought the house.

[SteamyTea]

6 minutes ago, redtop said:

the cornwall online highways map... and just past our access is access to the next property's drive which has been there well over 50 years and then after that there is a bollard so the path actually becomes a path.  madness

Things are done different down here.  Some think they actually own the sea.

[dnb]

You lot are making me feel lucky! I used an architect for planning because it's essentially a closed shop here. If you weren't born here you're at a significant disadvantage because your parents don't know their parents etc... Not corrupt, but certainly difficult. They negotiated the minefield very skillfully keeping my house design free of planning interference apart from one consession over real wooden cladding (and 12 planning conditions). They also discussed at length how we would live in the house, what my reasons were for that design and how they thought it could be improved. (They were right in the main so their ideas were incorporated, although the 308m2 floor area is causing me a little grief at the moment!). all for a couple of thousand pounds. I admit that the basis for their work was to "copy out neatly" my CAD drawn plans, but it was money well spent to have the review and get some feedback on things that might end up not working sensibly, and to have access to the contacts within planning. It amused me that I was set "homework" throughout - things like condition discharges and areas to research so building control was easier.

 

I used them again for building control. I wasn't going to initially because it's not particularly difficult, although it is time consuming. But I got involved in a big contract at work and simply had no time. This time the cost was a bit more, but they did a good job. I would have taken much more time to achieve the same or a lesser result, and I would have had nobody to review ideas and keeping me from going too far astray. Hopefully it was a learning experience for both of us - there aren't too many low energy houses here yet - the discussions were never one-sided and he had always found answers for last meeting's questions/concerns. Again, given my work circumstances it does not feel an inefficient a use of money.

 

Now it's build time, and I'm PMing on my own!  How hard can it be?

[ToughButterCup]

13 hours ago, Sensus said:

I find that a sharp slap when I think they're not paying attention usually works.

 

Yes, that's how I gained my students' attention : especially with Post Graduates - the more experienced the student,  the sharper  the intake of breath. And among those whose false teeth I had knocked out in the process, none of them even asked for first aid or Aspirin. Remarkable - never, even once!

 

Your comment highlights the importance of communication - it (or rather the lack of it) goes to the heart of the question (rant) of the OP.

It's normal for people to talk and listen past one another: everyone does it, on occasion, needs to even.

 

But in our context - a high stakes, highly charged, high stress environment, the soft skills involved become very important indeed. 

CDM 2015 points out that we are Domestic Clients. People who are assumed  not to have any significant levels of expertise. And so that imposes an additional level of responsibility on the architect; embodied in part in the profession's Code of Professional Behaviour and Ethics. There is an explicit  therapeutic  relationship  between client and expert here.

 

It is a great pity that the Code says nothing at all about the importance of effective communication - the profession  does by implication in the matter of requesting Third Party Review.  (requesting the details by which a decision was made ).

 

From your experience, what lies at the heart of good communication between client and architect?

 

 

[SteamyTea]

I have slept on this, but I am wondering why self builders use an architect.

We all know what a house looks like, and what we like.

So what is the 'big hole' in self builders knowledge that makes them use an architect?

Is it lack of drawing, planning, structural, artistic, materials, plumbing, decorating, electrical skills etc etc?

If the most common areas can be identified, then it is easier to give help.

[Jeremy Harris]

14 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

I have slept on this, but I am wondering why self builders use an architect.

We all know what a house looks like, and what we like.

So what is the 'big hole' in self builders knowledge that makes them use an architect?

Is it lack of drawing, planning, structural, artistic, materials, plumbing, decorating, electrical skills etc etc?

If the most common areas can be identified, then it is easier to give help.

 

 

I remember reading somewhere that the majority of houses in the UK weren't actually designed by architects.   Using an architect to design an ordinary domestic dwelling is something that seems to be a relatively recent phenomenon.  I've lived in around fifteen houses over the years, and suspect that only a couple of them may have had input from an architect.  Looking around our village (population about 500) there are a handful of buildings that an architect had a hand in, the manor house and the old school, perhaps a couple of the grander houses and  one recent conversion, but that's about it.  The two "new" (now ~20 years old) houses fairly close to me were designed by an architectural technician, as I have copies of their plans (they were a part of our boundary problem).  Most village planning applications that I've seen in the hast few years have been drawn up by architectural technicians; the only one that an architect designed was the conversion of the old school to a small development of houses, a tricky one, given the sensitivity of the surroundings.  I've not seen any plans that have been drawn up by the applicant.

 

 

[ToughButterCup]

12 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

[...]

So what is the 'big hole' in self builders knowledge

[...]

 

The lack of precisely that: lack of  knowledge, causing very significant levels of stress.  

 

[recoveringbuilder]

11 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

I have slept on this, but I am wondering why self builders use an architect.

We all know what a house looks like, and what we like.

So what is the 'big hole' in self builders knowledge that makes them use an architect?

Is it lack of drawing, planning, structural, artistic, materials, plumbing, decorating, electrical skills etc etc?

If the most common areas can be identified, then it is easier to give help.

We will shortly have to apply for detailed planning on our remaining plot which currently has outline planning but this will lapse next April. We won’t ever build the house ourselves so it won’t be a personal choice and we need to find the cheapest way of making the application, we were thinking maybe we could do it ourselves but quite frankly haven’t a clue how to do it. I could draw a floor plan no trouble but I couldn’t transfer this to elevations etc and it terrifies me thinking about the things the local council will ask for that I have no knowledge of so , much as I don’t want to pay an architect I don’t think I have any other option!

[SteamyTea]

Just now, AnonymousBosch said:

The lack of precisely that: lack of  knowledge, causing very significant levels of stress.

Isn't that like saying that accidents are caused by bad driving.

It never address the real problems.

So maybe I should have asked a different question.

What area of self building do people not understand?

[jamieled]

15 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

I have slept on this, but I am wondering why self builders use an architect.

We all know what a house looks like, and what we like.

So what is the 'big hole' in self builders knowledge that makes them use an architect?

Is it lack of drawing, planning, structural, artistic, materials, plumbing, decorating, electrical skills etc etc?

If the most common areas can be identified, then it is easier to give help.

We were probably a bit clueless about the options so an architect seemed a good idea. They did come up with ideas which were good and added to the design with relatively little cost - things that would probably fit in the 'artistic' category. I think it's one area where research might not help - I'll happily admit my creative side is lacking!

[SteamyTea]

1 minute ago, Christine Walker said:

I could draw a floor plan no trouble but I couldn’t transfer this to elevations etc

Take a picture of a house and trace around  it.  Not being facetious as that sounds.

2 minutes ago, Christine Walker said:

it terrifies me thinking about the things the local council will ask for

I think this is a major problem.  I do not understand why 'our' councils are so difficult.  

[ToughButterCup]

3 minutes ago, Christine Walker said:

[...]

we were thinking maybe we could do it ourselves but quite frankly haven’t a clue how to do it.

[...]

 

2 minutes ago, jamieled said:

We were probably a bit clueless about the options[...]

 

There you go @SteamyTea

[Jeremy Harris]

7 minutes ago, jamieled said:

We were probably a bit clueless about the options so an architect seemed a good idea. They did come up with ideas which were good and added to the design with relatively little cost - things that would probably fit in the 'artistic' category. I think it's one area where research might not help - I'll happily admit my creative side is lacking!

 

 

The creative element was far and away the most difficult for me.  The practical side, laying out rooms so they made practical sense, suited what we wanted and fitted with the need to meet passive house energy performance requirements, was relatively straightforward.  Getting the design to hang together so that it looked OK within the setting was a lot harder, as I simply don't have an artistic eye, or any experience as to what makes a house "look right".

[SteamyTea]

1 minute ago, AnonymousBosch said:

There you go

I don't see that as an answer, it needs a bit more fleshing out.

I am a reductionist.  If I don't understand something, I start to break the problem down into smaller parts that I do understand and can create solutions for.

This may sometimes look like stabbing in the dark, but it eventually gives an answer.

So rather than 'I don't understand any of it' answer.  Find the bits you do understand, and see where they fit into the bit that you don't understand.

[PeterW]

6 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

 

So maybe I should have asked a different question.

What area of self building do people not understand?

 

There are so many types of “self builder” that it becomes near impossible I expect to define. Some call giving a big cheque to a builder to do a turn key a self build, and at the other end there are the people who do everything themselves. 

 

Some need the architect to do the plan and they can construct it, others fit in the scale from the “designed and built it myself” to “I painted the downstairs WC”... 

 

It does beg the question about how many there are out there though that truly “self build”

[SteamyTea]

1 minute ago, JSHarris said:

Getting the design to hang together so that it looked OK within the setting was a lot harder, as I simply don't have an artistic eye, or any experience as to what makes a house "look right".

The architect that designed my house had no idea either (and it was an architect).  They then reproduced it hundreds of times.

More seriously, we tend to know what we like, so we can take pictures of them easily now.  Then play about with sketches and models.  Both skills that are easily learnt.

[ProDave]

12 minutes ago, Christine Walker said:

We will shortly have to apply for detailed planning on our remaining plot which currently has outline planning but this will lapse next April. We won’t ever build the house ourselves so it won’t be a personal choice and we need to find the cheapest way of making the application, we were thinking maybe we could do it ourselves but quite frankly haven’t a clue how to do it. I could draw a floor plan no trouble but I couldn’t transfer this to elevations etc and it terrifies me thinking about the things the local council will ask for that I have no knowledge of so , much as I don’t want to pay an architect I don’t think I have any other option!

If you are selling the Outline (Planning In Principle in Scotland) is probably all you want.

 

Can you not just re submit the previous application?

 

If you are re designing, you don't want too much detail for a plot for sale as it would tie the hands of the buyer too much, on the other hand you do want some, otherwise the planners will just stick on all the standard conditions like real slate roof etc.

 

You need to know enough like how will drainage work to comply with building regs otherwise you could get PP for a house that is impossible to build.

[SteamyTea]

4 minutes ago, PeterW said:

There are so many types of “self builder” that it becomes near impossible I expect to define

May be worth starting a list and asking people to put numbers against them.  Then can get an idea.

Just saying 'near impossible' just makes it a more interesting challenge.

 

[ToughButterCup]

2 minutes ago, Sensus said:

[...]

Just because you're building a house for yourself doesn't automatically limit your responsibilities to those of a Domestic Client

[...]

 

Exactly right. @JSHarris warns - often - about the perils of stepping across that divide

 

4 minutes ago, Sensus said:

[...]

Otherwise, accept the normal client:architect role, which is to give them a brief, then stand back and let them deliver the project,

[...]

 

And doesn't the process of negotiating a brief mean there's a conversation . And nobody spending  an average of £250,000 ( a guess) is going to simply ' ... then stand back ... '  are they? 

 

It's a partnership: and those require effort and emotional intelligence. 

[SteamyTea]

3 minutes ago, Sensus said:

Unfortunately, this requires that the scope and presentation of information has to be standardised into a form that it is easy to tick boxes against.

That should make it easier, as long as you know what the questions actually mean.

[Gone West]

14 hours ago, Patrick said:

I didn't know this was called a vestibule door frame. I just know this as a Door (variation of a normal entrance door). It s my English.

Basically it's this:

 

Problem is, this is not possible with a "normal" window that is around 1200mm wide and it STILL has a frame between the window and the door part, even though it's integrated in the "complete package".

Not to worry to find a solution, I corrected the plans and quit my dealings with the Architect( (s) for good).

We've got one of those. I didn't know it was called a vestibule door frame either. I just asked for an entrance door with a sidelight. Everyone seemed to know what it was.

[Gone West]

10 hours ago, the_r_sole said:

A timber portal frame?! 

That's not a normal construction method so no wonder you're running into issues! It would be more normal to have an engineer design something like that too...

We have a timber I-beam portal frame. It was designed by the SE, TF company and myself. We didn't have any insurmountable problems.

[SteamyTea]

28 minutes ago, PeterStarck said:

I didn't know it was called a vestibule door frame either

Did anyone?

[Construction Channel]

19 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Did anyone?

I would have called it a door with a full height side light. 

[Patrick]

1 hour ago, Christine Walker said:

 I don’t want to pay an architect I don’t think I have any other option!

I was thinking the same to start with, even though my reasons where very different. It was confidence that was missing in tackling (for me) unchartered territory. But after going over the plans around 8000 times, doing changes non stop, just to present the architect with a suitable version and not have him trying different versions of the plans (at potential extra costs), I am very confident that it can be done (with a bit of trial and error). As mentioned above, many houses are build without architects involved. Most extensions that get PP seem to be drawn up by the builder on the back of a napkin (by the looks of some applications).

Easiest way to do all this is to go online, find some Council nearby(should yours not do it) that have a easy to access, easy to use Planning site (some websites for planning are excellent, some are awful) and scroll through applications that seem a bit similar than what you are planning to do. Find 2-3 matches and download all the paperwork. From this Blueprint you can develop your own. Cost nothing but a bit of time to play around with it.

 

If you not comfortable with Autocad, don't worry, there are other options. I haven't got a clue about autocad and still do 3d designs.

One of my best mates done a degree in Timber Engineering (in a different country, where they do these kind of degrees) and had to do a few CAD drawings in his first year.

he couldn't wrap his head around autocad and so for 1 year did all his CAD drawings in MS Paint. Took him a few extra hours and he had to learn how to use Autocad in year 2 anyways, but there is a way around it ✌️