READERS BEWARE. RANT. Architects and other Building related Pen Pushers.

[Patrick]

Had a good look into the Architectural drawings yesterday in order to make some sense out of them for setting out the foundations. I used 2 different architects, 1 for the PP, which was a big firm with excellent reputation. They charged me a fortune, took ages and got 30%mistakes into the plans which I had to find and correct. After that I went to a local smaller firm with excellent reputation for the Building Control Plans, they charged me half a fortune and took double the time, but as a bonus missed complete structural sections in the plans, got measurements wrong and had all together not much clue about what I am trying to build, which resulted in them doing extra research which resulted in extra bills.

I also had a planning consultant at the beginning but after realising what gigantic waste of time it was, got rid off that one relatively quick. Unfortunately I had a bit more trust in the so called "professionals", as architects apparently have to study to hold this title.

It is an absolute joke. If I am able to do this (after a few months investing time and some effort), how can educated, professionals get it so wrong every F... ING time.

There are around 20-30members on here that should seriously consider charging others in order to do the PP and Building Control for them because the work I ve seen from People on this Forum outrun the average Architect by miles.

And Architects should maybe consider ditching the Construction Game and become what they really feel they want to do. Painting Flowers/Landscapes with Oil would be a good Idea for example.

 

 

*rant over. Not intended to attack anyone personally, just have to blow  off some steam.

 

 

[Construction Channel]

My favourite is when they charge a project management fee. 

[the_r_sole]

.

Edited September 26, 2019 by the_r_sole

[Declan52]

Nothing wrong with letting the rage out every now and then. 

So where do you stand now as in have you a complete set of plans or what details are you missing to complete them. And no way would I be paying any extra money to any one to do what you originally tasked them to do in the first place.

[MikeSharp01]

12 minutes ago, Patrick said:

blow  off some steam.

Consider it blown off! I liked working with our architects as they basically did a good job where we needed it and listened to what we told them. There are a couple of well known challenges they have:

 

Firstly they don't do money, well / if at all. There are reasons for this, but essentially they see their role as giving the clients a vision of what the architects have gleaned from discussions with the client rather than an outcome that can be achieved within budget which is usually elastic anyway. Secondly the construction world is even fuller with new ideas than the academic world so expecting any one person or practice to have a grasp of all the ideas that are out there ... - I guess its why GPs refer you on to specialist consultants. Thirdly, perhaps most importantly, they are fallible, so the expectation, though not theirs, is that any issues will be picked up by the next part of the processes - the builder.

 

Mike  

 

 

[joe90]

Like builders, there are good and bad ones around. I planned my house but not being CAD trained I employed  an architect to convert my pencil drawings into CAD for planning and building regs, he made many fundamental errors (didn’t copy what I gave him,,!). Conversely, my builder was brilliant, open to new methods, understanding and did what I asked of him.

Edited September 10, 2019 by joe90

[SteamyTea]

If architects are there to give 'vision', surely they should charge a similar amount as fortune tellers at the end of a pier.

About a tenner.

 

[Construction Channel]

In fairness the guy that did my drawings was fantastic. 

[daiking]

46 minutes ago, Sensus said:

On the other hand, I spend half my life pulling self-builders out of f****** big holes that they've dug for themselves, because they think they know what they're doing, when in fact they're pretty clueless.

 

Quite often I don't draw exactly what the client is asking me to, because it wouldn't work, or it would cost them twice as much as it needs to, or it would create a latent defect (which they'd then doubtless try to sue me for, when it manifests itself). I'm always very careful to explain to them where I've deviated from their instructions, and why, but half the time it's in one ear and out the other... I can see them glazing over as I speak.

 

They then spend the rest of their projects ringing me up every other day, expecting free advice and explanation of every tiny last detail, then get pissed off when I invoice them for my time.

 

 

The difference, of course, is that they are wilfully wasting their own money...

[daiking]

Just now, Sensus said:

 

Unfortunately, they can hold me professionally liable for allowing them to do so.

 

So why do you work with them?

[Ralph]

We paid a lot of money to our first architect and he designed us a cracking house that we loved. Unfortunately it would have been at least 100% over our very clear and definite budget even with cost cutting. We also wasted a load of time trying to get it within budget or trying different builders. 

All the way through it he kept insisting it could be done for our budget and builders were just taking the piss. I should say that this was quite a well regarded local practice who had worked with a lot of the builders who basically laughed at our budget.

 

Second architect has cost even more money and has designed another house that's more modest and simpler but we again love. The difference this time around has been marked. Everything is talked about in the context of the budget and we often get told no when we ask for something or at least yes but it will add £x to your budget, he would then suggest a cheaper alternative.

 

It's been a much better experience this time round, although we're a long way from finished for now the new architect has been worth the money.
 

[daiking]

1 minute ago, Sensus said:

 

I frequently ask myself the same question: our 'professional' clients (we do a lot of work for volume housebuilders, too) are certainly much more profitable, and much less trouble.

 

Mainly, it's for the challenge.

 

Isn’t it one of the early MBA secrets? Ditch the 20% of your customers that cause 80% of your problems?

 

However this is an asymmetric relationship, professional vs. amateur and professionals have a legal obligation to do better.

[Patrick]

Thanks Everyone.  Yes. That helped ?
 @Declan52

 PP is in, so not a big problem apart from a few £ extra spent, Building regs the same.it s just been a rocky road getting there.

@Sensus

I do understand that the so called self builders are a difficult bunch and you're standing up for the honour of your trade. I did meet excellent architects in my life, just never in this country. You might be the exception to my experience. My explanation to this is, that like with everything else, the "market" is not made/prepared for custom/self build and so are the professionals in it.

In regards to architect having to manage the client because client is clueless :Missing

 that you can not put a window next to a door in a timber frame house without a structural element (e. G. Stud) in between has really nothing to do with that. So does measuring distances wrong in the plans (distance in plan says 480mm, description of the wall section adds up to 525mm, meaning taking measurements from the construction or building regs plan would result with a foundation being 45mm too narrow each side)

?

[ToughButterCup]

2 minutes ago, Sensus said:

You can, you know.

 

Hmm, show me.

[Patrick]

OK. This is turning interesting @Sensus

This goes against everything I learnt. But than again, what did you say earlier :

"self builders think they know what they're doing, when in fact they're pretty clueless."

 

 

Edited September 10, 2019 by Patrick

[nod]

I paid a couple of thousand for Architect fees To get planning and materials through 

In fairness it was his young assistant that did the majority of the work 

 

Unless it is a radical design I don’t think you need an Architect past planning submission 

 

It very easy to get carried away with so called professional fees 

It’s very easy to spend other people’s money 

[nod]

5 minutes ago, Patrick said:

OK. This is turning interesting @Sensus

This goes against everything I learnt. But than again, what did you say earlier :

"self builders think they know what they're doing, when in fact they're pretty clueless."

 

 

I would argue that I know more about the practical side of  building than most Architects 

[Declan52]

But the volume house builders are much more experienced so they have already asked the stupid questions 3/4/5 developments ago.

I'm sure if a self build client came to you to do their plans you add on an extra expense to cover yourself time wise as you know they will need their hand held more often than a developer. 

I had no issues with my architect and found him more than approachable when I needed him to answer any questions I had. 

[Jeremy Harris]

We didn't use an architect, not because I didn't want to, in fact not finding an architect that understood the type of house we wanted to live in caused me a heck of a lot of additional work that I hadn't planned to do.  During the process of building this house I have now met well over a dozen architects, the four that we initially went to see, and that just didn't seem to be able to grasp the idea of a passive house at all, a handful that have visited the build at various times that I really can't pass judgement on one way or the other, as they were just interested in the construction method we'd used, and three that were really enthusiastic about passive house design, two of whom I got to know fairly well, and either of which I would have gladly worked with (one, in particular, stays in touch and comes around with potential clients from time to time).

 

My impression from talking to all these very different architects is that very few did much in the way of one-off commissions for self-builders.  I'm pretty sure that the four we went to see initially all fell into this category.  It doesn't really surprise me that some self-builders have problems with their architect, and perhaps part of this is that there just aren't many self-builders around in the grand scheme of things, so we aren't a big target market.  My guess is that, for an architect, working for a self-builder is a real mixed bag.  It's inevitable that a self-builder is likely to need a lot more help than a volume builder, as most self builders just don't have much experience of building a house, and probably don't fully understand where the boundaries of various responsibilities lie.

 

When we failed to find an architect locally (and I felt, rightly or wrongly, that we needed someone local) I did build a very good relationship with an architectural technician.  He was someone I felt we could very happily worked with, and this was backed up by some really good feedback from other clients of his.  Unfortunately, we had a long delay caused by legal problems with the boundaries of the plot we were buying (exacerbated by inaction by the vendor), and so by the time we came to start the planning process for real, the architectural technician had retired.  He did still give me a lot of advice, though, which was very nice of him, as we'd only paid him a nominal fee initially.

[ToughButterCup]

5 minutes ago, Sensus said:

Google: vestibule door frame.

 

So a frame isn't structural? I learn stuff every day. Must be a clueless self-builder. Less clueless than I was a few moments ago then eh?

[Gone West]

We had an architect do our full plans building control drawings which were based on our detailed planning drawings. He didn't know anything about low energy houses so we held his hand through the process.

[Declan52]

1 minute ago, Sensus said:

 

Yes, of course we do, but if we did so to a degree that actually reflected the additional time/cost involved, it would be unaffordable to them and/or we'd never get the work.

Then you can't really complain about them then. If you don't want to have self builders using your services then you charge the full price to cover your time and then it's up to them if they can afford you.  Or you do take this type of work on under the full knowledge that you will have to dedicate more time than the bill will cover inorder to get their cheque. You can't have it both ways.

[ToughButterCup]

1 hour ago, Sensus said:

[...]

but half the time it's in one ear and out the other... I can see them glazing over as I speak.

[...]

 

Excellent! You've identified a CPD opportunity for yourself. 

Do you have any idea why some of your clients glaze over as you speak?

[Jeremy Harris]

Just now, PeterStarck said:

We had an architect do our full plans building control drawings which were based on our detailed planning drawings. He didn't know anything about low energy houses so we held his hand through the process.

 

One of the four we went to see initially did suggest doing something similar to me, during our initial meeting.  The difficulty I had was that he felt we should use lots of glazing, and when I expressed some reservations about excessive solar gain, he was just a bit dismissive.  As it turned out, even my caution about keeping the glazing areas modest, having large overhangs etc for shade etc, wasn't enough, and we needed to reduce the solar gain a lot more after we'd built the house.

[ToughButterCup]

6 minutes ago, Sensus said:

One of two things, usually:

[...]

 

So, once you've identified the problem - and it's possible cause(s) , what do you think you might do to improve the situation?