A conversation with a council tax inspector.

[epsilonGreedy]

My plot is one of three self builds in a cluster and as the other builds are ahead of mine I have been able to observe how eager the local council is to levy full council tax on a new property.

 

The most advanced build was subject to full band F tax even though it was never occupied and 3 months before the developer felt it was ready to market for sale.

 

Last week an inspector parked next to my plot on the private site road and clocked me keeping an eye on her. After visiting neighbour no.2 she came over to explain her presence. She is one of two employees who keep an eye on new developments in a large rural district council. I had volunteered for council tax band A after taking up residence in the static caravan and with the tallest part of my build just 6ft high I felt I was in a strong position to question her about the ground rules for the commencement of full tax.

 

Apparently the council tax countdown clock starts ticking once a new build property is noted to have a roof and windows fitted. The council then decree it should take no more than 3 months to finish 1st and 2nd fix to create a habitable property. After 3 months a demand for full tax is issued unless the property is manifestly unoccupied in which case there is an extra 2 month grace exemption period.

 

I now anticipate OSB blanking sheets remaining in my window apertures for some time.

 

  

[Ferdinand]

Do you have the hole in the ground with the provable gap in the water supply ? , and the piece of pipe in your hand?

 

“Until I put *this* in there, lady ...”

[Jeremy Harris]

This has been discussed before, as I similarly had a local authority council tax snooper break into our plot (literally, climbed over the fences one evening) and then had a letter trying to charge me council tax.

 

The law is pretty clear on when a council can and cannot charge council tax.  It goes back to the old rates legislation, as that still underpins council tax.  To be able to charge council tax two things are needed.  The VOA must have carried out a valuation and placed the property on the register and the property must fulfil the requirement of being a rateable hereditament.  The key is the latter requirement, as without certain things in place the property cannot be classed as a rateable hereditament, and so council tax cannot be levied.

 

There is case law on this (linked to on other posts here about this) but one thing that stops a property being a rateable hereditament is no potable water supply.  I used this as a way to avoid being charged council tax for two years, and when I quoted the relevant case law to the local authority (and threatened them with action over their illegal entry to our site - caught on CCTV) they backed off very quickly indeed, and completely changed their approach.

[Gone West]

Our house had a roof and windows for years before we started paying council tax. We had visits from the council tax inspectors over a number of years and just told them we didn't have electricity or water.

[epsilonGreedy]

1 hour ago, JSHarris said:

The law is pretty clear on when a council can and cannot charge council tax.  It goes back to the old rates legislation, as that still underpins council tax.

 

 

I previously thought the council had to be able to demonstrate a property was habitable and key test points were a water supply, bathroom and working kitchen. The problems is  can we expect our local councils to obey the law, for example look at how some were censured for using new anti terrorist legislation to spy on parents gaming school catchment area policy.

 

I wonder if my local council is making up policy with disregard for legislation, what empowers them to decree how long it should take to complete a house once the shell is weather tight and then assume a self builder should complete a property on the same timescale of a mainstream pro house builder.

 

 

[Bitpipe]

17 minutes ago, PeterStarck said:

Our house had a roof and windows for years before we started paying council tax. We had visits from the council tax inspectors over a number of years and just told them we didn't have electricity or water.

 

We had a static in the rear garden for about a year before we started the build - we had it rigged to power, water and fouls but had not moved in - no council tax paid on it, however this was probably because it was off the radar.

 

We then got the demo permit for the old house and moved into the caravan - this allowed us to stop paying CT on the house (band D) and start paying it on the van (band A).

 

Fast forward a year and we move into the new house and disconnect the van from services. Council still charging us on the van at unoccupied rate (Band A) and said it was irrelevant that it had no power or water. They would only stop charging us when it was gone.

 

As it happened, we got shot of it very shortly after  - I sent photos of it leaving to council - so didn't bother to fight the decision.

 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

1 minute ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

I previously thought the council had to be able to demonstrate a property was habitable and key test points were a water supply, bathroom and working kitchen. The problems is  can we expect our local councils to obey the law, for example look at how some were censured for using new anti terrorist legislation to spy on parents gaming school catchment area policy.

 

I wonder if my local council is making up policy with disregard for legislation, what empowers them to decree how long it should take to complete a house once the shell is weather tight and then assume a self builder should complete a property on the same timescale of a mainstream pro house builder.

 

 

 

My experience was that the local authority were completely ignorant of the case law that defines a rateable hereditament.  I got referred to their legal chap, and after I passed him copies of the relevant case law he instructed the council tax lady to "cease and desist", from what I can gather.  Her attitude certainly changed dramatically after that.

 

I doubt that your local authority is any better informed.  The people trying to gather as much council tax as possible are doing it to try and increase revenue, and my experience suggests that they aren't really interested in the finer points of law (which isn't that unusual, in my experience of dealing with local authorities).  It isn't helped by the law being complex, and the definitions as to what is or is not a rateable hereditament are not that easy to interpret.  Someone might just read the statute and believe that they understand the law, without realising that some definitions in the statute have been modified by subsequent case law.

 

This old thread is worth a read, as it covers some of the law:

 

 

[nod]

2 hours ago, epsilonGreedy said:

My plot is one of three self builds in a cluster and as the other builds are ahead of mine I have been able to observe how eager the local council is to levy full council tax on a new property.

 

The most advanced build was subject to full band F tax even though it was never occupied and 3 months before the developer felt it was ready to market for sale.

 

Last week an inspector parked next to my plot on the private site road and clocked me keeping an eye on her. After visiting neighbour no.2 she came over to explain her presence. She is one of two employees who keep an eye on new developments in a large rural district council. I had volunteered for council tax band A after taking up residence in the static caravan and with the tallest part of my build just 6ft high I felt I was in a strong position to question her about the ground rules for the commencement of full tax.

 

Apparently the council tax countdown clock starts ticking once a new build property is noted to have a roof and windows fitted. The council then decree it should take no more than 3 months to finish 1st and 2nd fix to create a habitable property. After 3 months a demand for full tax is issued unless the property is manifestly unoccupied in which case there is an extra 2 month grace exemption period.

 

I now anticipate OSB blanking sheets remaining in my window apertures for some time.

 

  

We've been there 

We paid 50% before moving in Band F

While paying full band F on our home also 

They are not interested in weather your home is habitable  

Not having a loo or power is a myth 

 

There argument was Yes you don’t have stairs wiring Electively or water BUTIn our opinion eight weeks is ample time to have all of this

If you choose not to That’s up to you

Make no mistake they have the power 

Counsels are using a law brought in to stop builders stockpiling homes and simply adding power and a loo a few days before a sale   

 

I spoke to our solicitor and was told while it’s not in the spirit of the law They are using it to extort cash from you 

They made me a one off Offer 

They Would right off the supposed arrears But we would have to pay 50% for the remainder of the build 

I’d just finished first fix wire and plumbing 

I would guess if you are down a track or building in the middle of nowhere You would be ok

 

The accessor That banded told me she was let in by one of the builders 

I told her there was no builder just my wife and me 

 

[Jeremy Harris]

6 minutes ago, nod said:

We've been there 

We paid 50% before moving in Band F

While paying full band F on our home also 

They are not interested in weather your home is habitable  

Not having a loo or power is a myth 

 

There argument was Yes you don’t have stairs wiring Electively or water BUTIn our opinion eight weeks is ample time to have all of this

If you choose not to That’s up to you

Make no mistake they have the power 

Counsels are using a law brought in to stop builders stockpiling homes and simply adding power and a loo a few days before a sale   

 

I spoke to our solicitor and was told while it’s not in the spirit of the law They are using it to extort cash from you 

They made me a one off Offer 

They Would right off the supposed arrears But we would have to pay 50% for the remainder of the build 

I’d just finished first fix wire and plumbing 

I would guess if you are down a track or building in the middle of nowhere You would be ok

 

The accessor That banded told me she was let in by one of the builders 

I told her there was no builder just my wife and me 

 

 

 

The law is clear about when a house is habitable in terms of council tax.  Read the links I quoted earlier for the relevant case law that proves this beyond any doubt.

 

For example:

 

Quote

The key to this is that the dwelling must be on the valuation list before council tax becomes due for payment.

The key section seems to be 3.12 - Completion Notices which states in the first pargraph

"There are two ways a dwelling can be shown in a list. Firstly, by coming into existence as a dwelling, and secondly, where the building is not quite completed, by the BA serving a completion notice. If a LO is in doubt as to whether the building is sufficiently complete to constitute a dwelling, the BA should be asked to issue a completion notice before the list is altered. The law in this regard was examined in the case of RGM Properties v Speight LO 2011."

 

 

 and also:

 

Quote

I have quickly read this case and it provides the very helpful opinion at Paragraphs 17 and 18, essentially defining "completion"

 

• In the more recent case, before the Upper Tribunal Lands Chamber, of Porter v The Trustees of Gladman Sipps [2011] UKUT 204 (LC) the judgment examined the authorities and considered Ravenseft v Nottingham City Council. At paragraph 66 the judgment says:

   

• "The authorities, in our judgment, establish the following. A building is only a hereditament if it is ready for occupation, and whether it is ready for occupation is to be assessed in the light of the purpose for which it is designed to be occupied. If the building lacks features which will have to be provided before it can be occupied for that purpose and when provided will form part of the occupied hereditament and form the basis of its valuation it does not constitute a hereditament and so does not fall to be shown in the rating list. There is in consequence no scope for including in the list a building which is nearly, even very nearly, ready for occupation unless the completion notice procedure has been followed

   

• ."It should be noted that the wording there replaces "capable of occupation" with the words "ready for" occupation. If anything turns upon that distinction, I prefer the expression "capable of" which has the support of the Court of Appeal. Otherwise, this seems an uncontroversial summary of that which the cases showed.

 

Not having a potable water supply is probably the most cast-iron way of ensuring that council tax cannot be charged.

[epsilonGreedy]

2 hours ago, nod said:

Make no mistake they have the power 

Counsels are using a law brought in to stop builders stockpiling homes and simply adding power and a loo a few days before a sale   

 

 

This is my concern. After empty homes became liable for council tax during the 2008 financial crisis people were motivated to play the "not habitable" game on some technicality. To counter this practice by large house builders there was some Government policy revision and we slow paced self builders were the collateral damage.

 

I wonder if any of this trumps the older case law mentioned by @JSHarriswhich predates the 2008 change.

Edited August 30, 2019 by epsilonGreedy

[Jeremy Harris]

3 minutes ago, epsilonGreedy said:

 

This is my concern. After empty homes became liable for council tax during the 2008 financial crisis people became motivated to play the "not habitable" game on some technicality. To counter this practice by large house builders there was some Government policy revision and we slow paced self builders were the collateral damage.

 

I wonder if any of this trumps the older case law mentioned by @JSHarriswhich predates the 2008 change.

 

 

No, I showed in 2014-2016 that the case law (which dates from 2011) had not been superseded by a more recent adjudication.

[nod]

Just now, epsilonGreedy said:

 

This is my concern. After empty homes became liable for council tax soon during the 2008 financial crisis people became motivated to play the "not habitable" game on some technicality. To counter this practice by large house builders there was some Government policy revision and we slow paced self builders were the collateral damage.

 

I wonder if any of this trumps the older case law mentioned by @JSHarriswhich predates the 2008 change.

It doesn’t 

Jeremy was very helpful at the time

We tried everything But as I’ve already stated We kept coming back to the same Yes we understand that it isn’t habitable 

But we think it could be 

Did you know a house builder can have a house like yours complete in 8 weeks 

Yes but we are not house builders 

We are self builders

We went round in circles

I was very confident that our solicitor would be able to help

 

[nod]

Just now, nod said:

It doesn’t 

Jeremy was very helpful at the time

We tried everything But as I’ve already stated We kept coming back to the same Yes we understand that it isn’t habitable 

But we think it could be 

Did you know a house builder can have a house like yours complete in 8 weeks 

Yes but we are not house builders 

We are self builders

We went round in circles

I was very confident that our solicitor would be able to help

 

We felt like when you get a parking fine £60 pay now £30 

[K78]

Don’t know if it still applies, but no toilet used to render a property not fit to live in, which makes it council tax exempt. 

 

First thing i used to do when I bought a house to renovate was remove the beat up bathroom. 

 

I used to buy investment properties in Salford and the council tax rates are horrendous.

Edited August 30, 2019 by K78

[Jeremy Harris]

The law is pretty crystal clear, though, and I found that the legal chap in our local authority accepted it and instructed the council tax collection department that they would be acting unlawfully if they sought to impose a completion notice and start charging council tax.

 

There is clearly some scope for interpretation as to what does, or does not, form a rateable hereditament, but it is clear from the case law that an absence of a potable water supply, and, in some instances, the absence of wiring and power, is sufficient to declare that the building is not a rateable hereditament, and cannot just be put on the VOA list.

 

That doesn't prevent a local authority from attempting to submit a completion notice, and if they are allowed to do this unchallenged then the building, no matter what state it is in, may become a rateable hereditament.  The key is to appeal any attempt by the local authority to submit a completion notice.  This argument hinges on the length of time that the local authority give as a notice period.  Usually this will be three months, which may be OK for a volume house builder, but there is a strong case for doing as I did, and argue that a self-builder cannot be reasonably expected to work as fast as a professional house builder.

 

[Ferdinand]

48 minutes ago, K78 said:

Don’t know if it still applies, but no toilet used to render a property not fit to live in, which makes it council tax exempt. 

 

First thing i used to do when I bought a house to renovate was remove the beat up bathroom. 

 

I used to buy investment properties in Salford and the council tax rates are horrendous.

 

Very very very unlikely to work now.

[Lesgrandepotato]

We paid double council tax during the build. We had a renovation project and while it wasn’t watertight and liveable it was on the register and as such because we weren’t occupying we were liable to pay double for having an unoccupied property. 

[Temp]

Our council were pretty good. Out of the blue I got a letter stating that they thought I would be complete on a date that was a few months earlier than we thought. I wrote back giving them my predicted date and they agreed it with no fuss or questions.

[newhome]

My council didn’t bother to apply council tax until we had been in for about a year although it wasn’t complete at that point. Just seems to vary significantly.  

[NSS]

One of our (many) planning conditions was that we could not occupy the property until we had a completion certificate, so I think they'd have found it pretty difficult to charge us Council Tax before then.

[ProDave]

I last saw our council tax valuation officer in January.  He agreed then the house was not ready for valuation and said he would be back again in the summer. I have not seen him since.

 

We are still paying band A for the caravan, even though he knows we are now living in the house.

 

Obviously Highland council are not putting as much pressure on to get houses valued and paying full council tax.