Gus Potter

Ok many will disagree with me but here is my take on it. I did my first UFH heating system when many here were in short pants. I'm now a designer. My appoarch is pragmatic and absolutely driven by what is achievable on site, buildablity and cost driven. I honestly despair when I see folk trying to desing pipe layouts room by room! I can go on at length but it is complete bonkers! Thoery is taking over reality. To start. You are going to install pipes in a screed say and that has to be made as simple as possible. You want someone that is going to do this right, that is experienced and they will need a labourer. Take the experienced person at £300 a day and a good labourer that is going to uncoil the pipes and and not be a bit hung over, (kink them) at say at "£120.00 a day. So the labour is £420 a day. Save a day and that extra can get you more pipes.. for 50 years! Now to save labour and reduce risk its easier to make all the pipes at the same centres. Design for the nearly worst case. In real life the concrete guy turns up and may squash a pipe. You won't know. So you want some more loops as a bit of redundancy. There is a thread about how folk cock stuff up.. take my advice and avoid this scenario. Of course I'm not going to be BH angel of the month but best to be honest and give it to you straight about how things often work out on site for self builders. Yes you may think that you will be up to site checking everything.. but that is often wishfull thinking! Even then ask do you really know what you are checking.. do you have the experience / constructionknowledge to know how to argue if you find something wrong? At the end of the install you want something that has some contingency built in. But if you consider the labour saving vs the extra length of pipe it is a good balance of risk when you consider that the pipes need to last 50 years. As an SE that is used to balancing real life cost vs risk, and done UFH long before BH was even invented, I must say that much stuff you see on BH about folk trying to save a few quid is frankly complete pish! But it's not my money! My advice is to install plenty and easily buildable spare capactity in the floor and once the pipes pop up you can play with your controls to your hearts content. It's a good apporach as boiler and design technology develops.. to have spare capacity in the floor slab.. even if you don't need it right now. Put in plenty loops as a guard against the builder catching you out or say in the heat of battle you are doing the screed concrete your self.. you can easily miss a trick here. Don't think for a minute that while it looks great on paper.. on site when the concrete is coming you will likely not have the experience to say to the concrete guys,, hang on.. the may bully you and play to your wallet. So to finish.. I say to many armchair techy folk that are trying to refine UFH pipe layouts.. stop having a laugh and lets look as what happens on site and the labour cost of fannying about with different pipe spacing. Many folk on BH end up moving walls or end up with a diferent kitchen desing layout. Self building is hard enough without getting over enthused about some hot water pipes in the floor.. keep it simple and that way you'll save on labour and reduce you risk of something going wrong. That's my view in the round.

That length of loop is bonkers! But if in the floor it is what it is. Question is.. is that loop near an external wall or not and if so.. by how much and is the cold wall on the upside of the loop or the cooler side? Next is does this matter? I know many are not keen on my rough and ready approach to UFH. But they will realise 5 - 10 years down the road when they are spending hand over fist to keep it working! or maybe want to sell! Now if you look at many posts on BH there is my view on a high reliance on software.. but pretty much none on BH know how that works! they blindly trust.. they certainly don't know that FE models are and often widely wrong. As an SE Fe is subject to lots of scrutiny as it often down right dangerous! The IStructE has many papers on this.. it's a great tool if treated with caution, a very handy aid! Ah but there is an upside. The first thing is to recognise that we have not lost the skill to be able to teach ourselves. When I went to uni at 40 was in tears on my first day.. I clocked that my educators were actually teaching me how to teach myself! You can only appreciate that when you go to higher education in later life. Yes we are a bit slower.. but also faster as we have the life experience to be able to identify what we need to learn in the context of the problems we face. Mike: Is the black line your actual room temperature? If so that does not reflect real life? What room was that in?

Ah, that is a bit embarrassing. Fault lies at my end.. I should have explained in a better way. Blame is being a bit harsh on yourself. Ask and reflect. How much were you expected to know when you started? Evaluate how much you have learnt, take pride in that, and yes don't let it weigh on you. I'm making some posts that reflect my own experience. From a novice self buider to an SE / Designer that chips in here. I've made some horrible mistakes when running a contracting business! But at the time I did not know any better, I just did the best I could with the knowledge I had at the time. Now this thread is about.. hind sight and mental health to be blunt.. but also about trying to see how you get out of the woods at times when the world turns to shite. I'm chipping in as I am fortunate enough to see it from both sides.. as a past self builder myself and now on what you may call "the other side of the fence".

I had a loom at this for my own house as wanted soemthing similar. True but what I cloked was this. @Anneker, I'm going to be a gent and say you are not as old as I. When I came back from Kenya to complete my secondary educuation Scotland was cold.. but the school really did have some real cast iron radiators. From memory the fins were about 150 mm thick and oval. The flow went in the top and out the bottom. The modern equivalent (replica) has the flow in the bottom and out also at the base. To make it work (modern column radiator) you need to fit a baffle at the inlet at the base.. which basically makes it almost work like a modern radiator. Now the baffles are not perfect hence the likely discrepancy you see. Architectural radiators need to make a compromise between performance and design look.. there is no free lunch. I would if I was you chose the thing you like, over size it a bit, say by 20%, fit a thermostatic valve. Make sure you have a good diameter flow and return pipe to it. In the round all this may cost you £100 quid more but I bet the paint on the walls is going to cost you more than that? Keep posting! Gus

And that sir is the fun of it.. play away. I love this stuff. But have not taken time to really study your info. Firstly though. Your building is going to take time to stabalise.. not just the soil dumpling but the exteral walls. The moisture levels and the temperature in the dumplig below your insulation will have to settle into the new regime. Are you moving furniture about, changing rugs on the floor? Have you taken your socks off and just walked about in bare feet? Well technically yes. But in real life I've heated floor slabs by accident by a mile with flows in the pipes up to 60 -70C.. but the flooring was laid to compensate for this kind of accident as I have a gas boiler.. accidents do happen? and I'm after all a UFH philistine. Put it in.. lots of short loops for redundancy, make it buildable.. That plant room is a bit of a dream space wise.. you lucky sod! From the graph I think I can see that no flows go above 40C?

True but BH should be for both sexes of which there are only two biological ones. There was a Mens shed in Glasgow but funding was cut. I do think this thread is a revalation.. it's got folk talking. For all posting about the hard times you have gone through.. see if there was more of this then maybe you could have felt more supported, for many its too late but for folk starting out at least try it.. you have nothing to lose! You still have had to put in the hard graft, learn about building.. but maybe without the overstress.

This is a great point, I'm surprised also as insulated plasterboard is not tested for this, in fact many bodies have realised that this does not work!

@Jammy5 Three story building, advised fire rated cavity closers on all openings. Are they really required or will normal insulated cavity closers suffice? I'm going to have a go at this at a basic SE/ practical level which might help folk, no matter where you live in the UK, to get their head round this stuff a bit. I'll start with masonry cavity wall construction. Timber frame is much more complex and I've not covered it here. Please excuse my spelling / grammer as it's at the end of the day. But to start: 1/ One of the key concepts for fire design is that it can be split into two stages.. and that is where many folk on BH find it hard to get their head round things when looking at the regs. The following is just a rough summary, but for the newcomer I hope it gives you a bit of an insight. Stage one: (a) We give warning to the occupants of smoke, flame / heat..these are your smoke and heat detectors, this indicates you need to get out the house. (b) On taller houses we need to recognise that there may be disabled people, so we need things like protected stairs / floors. (c) All that happens, occupants are safe and the insurer's pick up the tab. Stage two: The fire service attend. They first ask.. is everyone out? Their next job is to not to protect your property, (as of course you are insured) it's to assess whether your burning house is going to set fire to the rest of the street and put other folks lives at risk. The regs are founded on the fire of London in 1666, I kid you not! https://www.london-fire.gov.uk/museum/london-fire-brigade-history-and-stories/fires-and-incidents-that-changed-history/the-great-fire-of-london/ Now the fire service then need to assess how close they can get to your house without it suddenly collapsing on them. And this is where the regs have in interest. A 3 story masonry house ( 2 floors + an attic often relies on the fact that the floors stabalise the higher walls for example. Now you may legitimately ask.. but there are many town houses like this.. why do I need to close my cavities..ok this is supposed to be fun so and humour is welcome! The fundamental difference is that on Victorian or earlier houses the walls were often solid. In the latter day with cavity masonry the cavities were closed off by returning the inner masonry leaf with a DPC against the outer leaf. But now we are wanting to stop that thermal bridge so the cavity is open at the window reveals and over the head. @Jammy5, now you could ask.. why can't I do this.. leave the cavity exposed as I'm filling the wall with insulation. Well the insulation could not be that fire proof. If it is you are going to have to prove that it is equivalent to a closed cavity with a proper and tested material. You'll struggle to to this and you'll also need a fire engineer.. they will likely tell you.. don't waste your money! You ask.. it seems ok to me. But to reinforce my point. Any cavity acts as a chimney and draws.. this excacerbates the development of fire. That fire can shoot up the cavity and compromise the floors etc that are providing lateral stability to the walls. If that happens the walls can fall on the fire brigade. Things like posi joists are designed to hold day to day working loads with some basic fire protection only, unless specifically detailed = money. Solid timbers are bit more forgiving.. provided the connections hold up. Now in the old days folk had few furnishings, there was no plastic, kids toys and appliances say. In a modern house what we call the "fire load" is much increased.. that is the stuff that maintains not just the duration of the fire but also it's intensity at times. In summary you can see why BC and designers are saying.. you need fire rated cavity closing.. and as a benchmark lets use / set that against the traditional way of closing off a cavity wall by returning the masonry. So hopefully that has given you all and understanding about what we are trying to do and it will let you see behind the curtain when looking at the regs in your particular part of the UK.

Hiya. Thanks for posting the drawings. I've had a quick first look.. need to digest more, but it's been along day so far. As others have said the level of drawing information required to get BC approval varies depending on where you are in the UK. In Scotland you would not get approval based on this level of drawing / design information. At a first glance, I would look at.. ok you have BC approval. What do we need to communicate to the builder to enable them to price and for you to tie them down without incurring extras.. or them going off an doing their own thing. If you paid for a set of drawings and the deal was for that alone then that bargin is concluded? If you want a set of drawings that a builder can use and give you a bit of price certainty then these are not enough.

It is indeed, incapacitating at times. How did you guess that correctly? Self building / renovating is a big undertaking. From my own perspective I've experienced stress (like most folk), from many aspects over my life in building. From leaving college, running a small local contracting business, to reinventing myself as an SE / Designer. I've learnt to accept that stress comes with pretty much any job. I suppose the big question is.. is it worth the hassle? But it's much harder for self builders / renovators as often the pressure comes from areas that you are less experienced in dealing with, this amplifies the stress. This could be financial, technical, managing contractors, the physical effort (makes you tired being on your feet all day).. I could keep adding to this list. Many on BH are sucessful in their own carear market.. must be to get the cash together in the first place! But the point here is that in the run up to a build and during you often face an onslaught of problems that you have never encountred before, even in your day job, that just overwhelms you. You recognise that there is a gap in your building knowledge and to get your head around that is often a steep learning curve and then time acts against you. Unless you know you way around the building trade then there is the "language" problem. You have to learn a bit about that and lots before you sign a contract. The pressure is massive and few folk navigate this perfectly. It's not often the technical diffculty.. many members would take this in their stride due to their life experience if they are considered in isolation.. it's just the volume and the fact that they (technical stuff) all pile up at once.. you can feel you are circling the plughole! Often it is due to everyone else (designers / builders / the banks and every other person that is involved) that seems to be nipping your head / not doing what they are supposed to! You expect that in good faith your professionals will actually do what you as a domesctic Client are reasonably able to expect, or have been lead to believe. Ok. To sum up.. don't feel at any time you are inadequate if things go wrong on a build. Often things can be fixed and life returns to normal. After about 5 years the mind has this built in defensive mechanism where you start to forget the worst times.. after 10 years you remember the good times and what you achieved. The mind heals it's self in many cases. My stuff as an SE: I have a great job, it's very creative at times. Probably the best thing is when you have to design from first principles and marry that up with something that is archtecturally pleasing, can be built and within the budget. But the SE side comes with a lot of responsibility. If the architectural details leak water, or you go over budget then it's not a good look..bad for business, but if something falls down then this is a serious matter. There are two common ways buildings fall down.. a slow collapse and a sudden collapse. The latter is where you are most likely to kill folk as it happens without warning. During the build if temporary works collapse then you can kill the folk working on site. If something like this happens then it will be on your conscience for the rest of your life. I don't know what I would do if I was responsible for a death or many. Best thing to do is to make sure it does not happen! Now every so often I'll design something, do the drawings and calculations. I tend to sit on them for a bit.. sleep on it and let my mind work away in the background. Sometimes I wake up with a busy brain in the middle of the night.. with a bad feeling. I just get up and go and check, there is no way I'm getting back to sleep. The next night I sleep better. Some of the time I realise that I've not included enough explanation in my drawings. Ocasionally I identify a mistake. It's ok.. this is part of the checking process. Sometimes I act as a checking engineer.. I check submissions from large contractors who put pressure on you. I can manage this but as a self builder / renovator it can be very stressfull, not least due to the "language" diiffculty. In the round it's ok to fell stressed, it's no stigma if you feel depressed or out of your depth at times. A problem shared is a problem halved as they say!

Did you check with your SE? What loads are coming from above? Are you one of these Clients that are stubborn and it's you way or the highway?

Ok I get you feel that I'm not supporting the method you are adopting. That is ok. You are asking for a bit of support on your project. My language is maybe not what you are used to. It's blunt and straight to the point. The main reason is that it's your money! I'm chipping in here as I think what happens if I end up representing you! But why should you be used to this?.. the building trade has it's own language, contracts and weird way of working. I've explained how you can get help on BH for free. But ask yourself this.. I use my own name on BH.. do you think I'm trying to undermine you or maybe I'm just giving you a bit of professional tough love. I don't know you from Adam! It is unlikely you will be ever be a Client of mine! I post probono, with 40 years experience. If you don't like what I'm saying.. well that is up to you.. it's your money after all. But rest assured.. from what you have posted you have a desing chalenge ahead. Make it too hard and it won't get built as designed.. the builder will walk away with your money! In that process you will get stressed out mentally, that comes at a cost. You mention you have trouble with Architect communication.. ok.. but as an SE / Designer that is not where we start from. We start by reviewing the design and your Architects brief, see what you have paid for and what has been delivered. If that is a bit off then do we say.. well the Architect has cocked up a bit.. it might be your fault as you only paid for a rough design or maybe the Architect is shite! Yes there are some, as are SE's floating about! But at the end of the day you want to get the thing built properly, you also need to come up with a design that is buildable and cost viable.

No, your next challenge is to completely review your design! You are going to find yourself in a pile of manure! That is ok if you have plenty money and a bit more when you have to explain to your other half how you completely blew it!

Ok I use my own name so have to be very careful about what I say. Someone could report me for "hate crime" this is the way we have to live at the moment. My Dad took our family to Kenya when I was 4. The primary school I went to was a mix of every nationality. We then went to Uganda, Idi Amin came to the swimming pool but he stopped that when he took over the country and murdered most of the oppsition politicialns. We got "booted" out and went back to Kenya. The Asians got booted out and the UK took them in, the Kenyans did not want them, Indians etc , (note their religions), they integrated well in the UK, some are leading now leading politicians! ... so were the Kenyans racist! I suspect that a lot of folk, even some on BH are arm chair warriors! To add a bit.. my Dads job entailed us moving about in the middle east. I remember as a kid landing in Beruit airport when there had been.... a religious attack / or similar.. they used genades.. the blood was all over the floor, shoes and stuff. I have made posts before where I apply common sense, I have no time for woke and have no respect for folk who have not even understood about how the second world war started! Probably at least a year ago I exlained about West of Shetland crude, the price, the difference between heavy and light cude oil, how you process it. I also explained about Gulf crude.. but still the eco fannies just can't get their heads around the way world economics work and the hard reality of global politics. @JohnMo and other have picked this up. As an Enginneer that also understands risk I despair! I do chip in from time to timea bout my basic ideas on underfloor heating. But I just don't have time in my day to argue with eco zelots that want to spend every elses money apart from their own. I live and work just south of Glasgow.. folk are skint! I think the big problem is that we have a generation of folk now that are frankly ingonant.. they are the TIK TOK generation, they pretend they know it but they have not spent the time looking at history, analysing and digesting. As an SE I can tell you these are the kind of folk you do not want anywhere near your job!

Fair point! But we both wear our hearts on our shirt pocket! Yes do that. I'll chip in when I get the chance as others will do. What you will find is that we on BH are like a family.. we don't always agree!. Your job is to distill the info you get, rule stuff in or out and make an informed judgment. Once you do this then you are well on your way! Some, maybe me, will give you tips on how to bring your Architect to the table, hopefully that will not need to happen.

It will take you a bit of time but you can just post them on this thread. If you feel you have made a mistake, just ask the MODS to help you, they are great! If you accidentally post confidential stuff they will remove it. I think there is a Mod on duty pretty much all the time. The main thing to recognise is that BH folk are not going to jump down your throat, you are not going to get pulled up on your spelling.. you will get pulled up if you try and work a flanker! Give BH a go. But remember what you are doing is not that easy! In fact it is technically challenging. You are mixing up fire design, different roof construction and ventilation strategy. Look at it this way.. you have got so far in the design process, recognised that there is a design fit up and insulation / ventilation / fire compatibility and you are dealing with it by coming on Build Hub.

Ok fair enough. Hope I've not caused offense, it was never my intention. @jack has allayed any concerns I had about BH getting sold.. but I do think it is fair enough for me to ask the question in the first place! I also think it is fair for me to make suggestions about fund raising. I made my case, that is all. Nick, if you have a problem with me then you have my phone number, lift the phone and lets chew the fat. Gus.

Hello Jamie. My last post was intended to see if you were serious, bit of tough love! Ok now you are among lots of kindred spirits on BH. Everyone has to start from somewhere, don't whatever you do feel embarrased! What you are doing is not easy! The hard part is the interfaces. These ccan take lots of time and expense to sort out. This is very much up to you. I do this as a day job..there are other folk like me but also lots of folk that have forgotten more than I know! On BH there are contractors, glazing specialists, Architects @ETC for example..that are all chipping in with their professional knowledge and practical construction advice. This is up to you but the best thing to do would be to get all the info and drawings you have., bundle that up. Remove any personal details and identifying marks an post the whole lot on BH! I'll, when have the time chip in.. but the other members will really give you an insight and help. It's kind of a come to "Jesus" moment.. you post the lot and get lots of expert advice..straight off the batt. Some suggestions you get will be off the wall, some not viable as we don't really know what you want to do. But that is part of the desing process.. which is often about ruling out the things you DON'T want to do.. I'm a big advocate of this! Story for another day. I'll give you mine as an SE / Desinger but I can't spend time playing detective with you, if you hold back. Some sugestions you get will not be applicable but will help just generally inform you. BH members really do what it says on the tin! There is the odd wanker but the Mods sort them out quickly. To finish Jamie.. It's ok to not have a clue! I didn't when I first started out! Welcome to the club! Main thing is to enjoy the design and learning process. Remember it's your money so every pound is a prisoner!

Indeed Nick. In the past the was a tab where you could, if a validated member, make a donation via bank transfer.. but that is going back a bit. But now we have to be really careful about data protection. All I'm saying is that there is not even a tab to make a pay pal donation for example. I do think BH are missing a trick where folk can just spontaneously donate.. But easy to say, not so easy to set it all up IT wise, maintain data protection etc. If the forum management want to set this up properly then that is going to cost, it will take up Mods time. The forum management may need to pay to farm this out. I'm more than happy to chip in with donations if it keeps the BH show on the road.

Hi Ali. I've PM'd Jack so you can see that. I have expanded in a bit of detail. Again a great thanks to the Mods. But as a philistine. Yes there is concern at BH dropping off the rankings. I joined BH in 2020, so that puts me still in primary school in BH terms. Now my head does not zip up the back. To keep a show on the road like BH takes a lot of work and folk are doing this voluntarily! All organisations like this from time to time have to go an element of turmoil. The Forum management are not always going to get on, some may become unwell or just move on, life takes over. When I joined Jeremy Harris was a guy I loved.. he had a hand in writing design codes, as an SE that interests me, but he left.. Please can you mods put back in place the option to make a quick contribution, say just a tenner. I have BH bank details but now with banking security that is not a good option to post bank details in public. Sometimes I make I post that I know is going to save folk thousands and then suggest.. just make a donation. Yes I do it for free, as do many others, but we can't do that without the BH platform. Sometimes I say.. we have as a Bh group saved you loads.. for free, so make a contribution to BH. BH need to strike while the iron is hot and folk realise that their arse has been saved! They ain't going to come back if you have a fund raiser every six months! If BH end up with too much donations in the bank then that is a problem for another day!

Jammy. You are winging it mate. You have posted no drawings for example. I do this as a day job. From the questions you are asking it is clear you have no clue, not even taken the time to talk to your designers. But you maybe did not pay them enough in the first place and are now chasing you tail and trying to get a fudger by milking the good will on Build Hub. Accept that you need to pay for professional advice here. You might get away with this stuff to start with but is going to come back and bite you in the arse!

Lets see some drawings and details. Plan views and cross sections. I do this as a day job and can tell you it is much harder than you think. Forget the BBA stuff, material selection at this stage and concentrate on the basics first. First step is to understand how your new stuff fits into the old. Then design something that your builder can build without pulling your pants down cost wise. You don't really know the setting out of your existing roof and wall head detail.. have you surveyed this critical bit yet? At the end of the day the objective is to produce some drawings that your builder and you think.. how simple and chep is that. But to get there you and your designer are going to have to put in a fair bit of work. If you post the drawings you have then folk like me may chip in with some suggestions.

To post this was a great idea. I've been browsing through the responses and made an earlier post myself. Collectively can you all take a like as a given from me. This has prompted me to write the following, partly in the context of what it looks like from a designer's perspective. I'll try and link this with what @ToughButterCup and all are discussing. As a quick refresh of my background. I did a selfbuild in my 30's, really got up every day in the country and built a bit of the house, three years later it was nearly finished, we moved in. Folk stopped by and said.. would you do my house next, I built a business in the Scottish Border area as a building contractor. When about 40 my wife and I parted and with that went the house we had built together, achieved our dream. My German Shephard dog died.. I sold up and went to uni to become an Engineer. Now 20 years later I'm an SE and Architectural designer. Lots of my work is domestic work. The key thing is that doing what I do now means that I'm often involved at the start of the Client's journey, there is cash in the bank and even when having a battle with the planners.. things still generally look ok. If I was to make a quick and not comprehensive list of the things that go wrong on a self build or say a house extension these would be.. I've tried to order them a bit. 1/ Money, lack of allowing for contingency. 2/ Designers not producing enough information that protects the Client which they often use to enter into some form of contract. Few domestic Client's want to pay for a formal recognised industry contract. They get swayed by the builder to entering into something that often leads to trouble later. Designers should be able to assess to some extent the Client's unspoken needs. Even if this risks losing the brief! What I'm saying is that everyone involved in a project has a duty of care and that now starts right at the beginning of the design process, before this was much less the case. 3/ Builders just being themselves, often inexperienced, making pricing mistakes, can bankrupt them and then they need to claw that money back by throwing the Client under the bus. 4/ To get to the point where you want to build something as a Client you have probably got the where with all to get some cash together, maybe have some building experience. This ius a good step forward. I can tell you I have been doing this for 40 years and the scary thing is that the more you learn the more you realise what you don't know! A Client who is obstinate / does not listen to the evidence or discuss the advice you are giving in an open and collegiate way is often in trouble. A stubborn Client can be their own worst enemy! I just picked out this. OCD is fine, if managed. I have day job, that is a hobby as an SE, and attention to detail, not good at spelling. I have a number of Client's fthat many would run a mile from. They put me under scrutiny, can be horribly blunt, sometimes offensive at the outset. I don't have a problem with this as I can see that they are paying my wages and it's my job to walk them through the design, discuss and so on. Now that all seems a bit forensic but when you talk about the design often other things come out of the mix. What the underlying issues are come to the surface, do they feel down? We take about these and then come back to the design things with a fresh approach. Many Clients are professional in their own work life but seem to lose the plot when they have to move out their comfort zone, even the language use is different. My own view is that it's my job to make sure a Client is assisted in this. That said I do some steel connection desing for commercial steel fabricators, most have their heads so far up thier own arses, gods gift it's unbelievable. And the cheaky buggers want to pay in 90 - 120 daysdays! I've pretty much given up on them for now.. until they go bust and young folk pick up their crumbs. Some self builders take the view they are the hardest ass on the planet, bad news, but these are not the majority. Most I meet are timid, cautious, know thye need help but just don't knopw how to ask, they have their ducks in a row, often very thoughtful, intelligent and need someone to say.. your idea is sound and here is why as a professional I think your idea is sound. My job is then to say.. here is how we are going to design (the drawings, SE calcs) , cost, tender and navigate the build. A quick story. I had a husband an wife Client who were both SE's, one worked in oil and gas, one on Naval ships. Their job needed a lot of steels, which they did as a day job, in their sleep. But they did not have the contacts, experience to translate that into a domestic setting. My brief was.. you do the donkey work Gus, get the approvals, sort the ventilation, the electrics, the timber design etc and we will check your stuff. It all worked out. 5/ Planning an executing an extension can take say 18 months, a house much longer. Life often changes in that time. You are doing yourself a disservice. I'll take that as retorical for discussion. This next part is to do with why we do it. Much has been written on BH about this. Another quick list in no order. We often build stuff for the following: 1/ We want to save money. If you take a good trades person with a van at say £ 1200 - 1500 a week then add in a labourer you are in the region of 2.0k a week ex vat if not new building. To earn that you have to pay the tax on your income first. If you can do a bit yourself that is a significant saving. In parts of the country this is a lot more. But get this bit wrong an in a month 10.0 k can go down the drain on labour alone. 2/ You could buy a Persimmon or the like house.. but that also has latent risk.. and just not the right shape or size. 3/ You have a dream.. this is common. It's a not just a dream, it that earthy thing we have to build a home just for us. Say you work in banking / insurance.. you work but by self building you make something that lasts.. probably longer than you will live.. it's instinct.. basic and the deep satisfaction that you get will last for the rest of your life. In terms of mental health it bench marks something solid that you can look back on. 4/ Do it for the kids. Home building is deeply rooted in parenting, relationships, even if you don't have kids it's a thing that is deeply rewarding. Once you die you get to leave something that others will enjoy. To finish. Again I thank everyone for their posts and for BH for facilitating this. Now putting my pro hat on.. mental health is common in self building. The obvious reason is that it is hard, challenging, folk are putting their financial lives at risk so it's no surprise that it crops up as it tests you mentally. I'm sure many that have posted, including myself would, if given another go, say.. I would have done it in a different way. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Most importantly though we are all still on the top site of the grass and living! What ever you do don't be afraid about talking about mental health is perfectly normal, part of the construction industry. My wife is a Psychotherapist at the Scottish equivalent of Broadmoor so I have someone to talk to about this kind of stuff. Building stuff is much more about a people thing, how we interact, how we support each other in this modern day and age. From that conversation we can sort out contract's, make a cost programme and so on based around you the Client's way of being. But to make self building stack up financially you have to "cut" some corners, work oput what the risks are and these include your mental health. Most designers, timber frame suppliers, ground workers etc are not like me! Even I have my limits.

That is good place to look for the culprit and good sage advice.

Hi Jack. Thank's for taking time to examine my text. "All BH staff are unpaid volunteers and that won't change." Great news to me and delighted to hear that. "Many of our members join, hang around until their build is finished, then we never see them again" But that surely is the nature of the beast. It only takes a few to hang around out of the thousands of members to keep things current and BH "living". "Over time, there'll occasionally be the need for a new mod or administrator, but we've handled that as needed. Most of the current staff have been here for many years and have no intention of going anywhere." This is also great news, not least as life experience counts for a lot as does continuity.. and don't take this the wrong way mods, grandfathers rights, skipping a generation and trying to reinvent the wheel often leads to problems. "I don't know why you think BH dropping down the rankings suggests we'd be trying to sell it." Ah I may have had my commercial hat on a bit squint! But I recollect that I was prompted by the drive to get onto the first page of the rankings and that is important if you want to position for selling an online platfrom. It just raised a flag at my end. "I can categorically state that there's not even the hint of a glint of an idea to sell. We have no income other than donations." Music to my ears as it will be to many others and I'm please to hear that my "water" has in this case been ok after all and my concern unfounded. We have no income other than donations. Many organisations would give their back teeth to be in a place like this. My only comment is that I think there was a donation tab, tried to find it @AliG. When joined BH I learnt loads, still do. I can see that the forum must be saving folks piles of cash at times and just think, I'll just send as a spontaneous gesture £50 quid as a thanks. Anyway to finish. Thanks Jack and to all the mods for all your hard work.