Roger440

I assume you mrean we "sdhouldnt" be selling them to numptys? Problem is, installing myself is potentially affordable. Paying to have it done (borderline impossible here anyway) means its not affordable. So continue with what i have. Which is worse? Not that it changes the law. Its clear that by getting the customer to nominate an installer is sufficent to keep the regulator off their back. They all appear to be doing much the same.

I think we all know why. And now they have icreased the subsidy, they will be even more expensive. Ive not paid close attention, but how will the government force an owner occupier to get it to a C ?

On a theoretical level, its entirely logical. I never disagreed. Just completely impractical. Because who will pay? Where will i live in ther iterim. Who will pay. Wo will pay. If i could safford that, id have built a new house. I would have loved to do a new build. But in the end, it just couldnt be. I have niether the time, nor the money to do it. Never mind a complete lack of suitable plots etc. Especially as i want/need a decent sized workshop. The latter could never be got through planning on a new build.

Was the pump used rather than new?

Sounds great. But my point is, its cheap to run because it was expensive to install. Your money, your choice. But its cheap for a reason. Because of all the extra tackle you have tacked on. Which usually doesnt get a mention. But is absolutely key to its performance. Im unclear how you get a heat pump and cylinder installed for £3k though? Anything under 5 figures seems to be impossible. Id do it myself, but i still couldnt do it for that. Id like small bills when i retire, but i see no route to achieving it. Agree completely on the MOD thing. But for them, it will be a box ticked. No buring of fossil fuel. Minimal disruption. Who cares what it costs to run? We will be paying for it.

Not really. I was responding to Johnmo who, more than once claims how cheap his system is to run. Which is great. But only because of the huge capital outlay. Talking about one without the other, is, frankly pointless. Indeed to OP link to MOD is relevant to this. Dirt cheap to fit, probably not so cheap to run.

That really is bugger all. I can dream! I reckon i could get it down to circa 6, maybe a touch less. But it will cost £20k plus. With me doing all the work. And thats keeping the existing boiler. And moving out for 6 months plus. So no financial logic whatsoever. Just got to get combined household income under £31k, then i can have it all done for free courtesy of the welsh government.........

Puts my house into perspective. I reckon (well if it was colder, this year isnt normal) id do 15-18MWh in a year. Hopefully less, but it will be a useful excercise.

Not this again. You keep , in your posts, ignoring the capital outlay for a full system, batteries ands solar. Of course its cheap to run. But was hardly cheap to buy ? Payback period? Lots is the answer. Fortunate that you can fund it and take the long term view. So yes, i can agree with you, that contrary to nods assertion that gas must be cheaper. But only if looking at half the picture. Otherwise, he is correct.

It is possible/probable that a slab over conventional insulation may drive the moisture to the walls. But, frankly, its difficult to know until its done. Every situation is different. Our old house in bucks had had this done. It was a disaster. Our house in Wales, exactly the same. Not really a problem at all. Who knows why? Just isnt. Both solid wall, no DPC. What does it have now? Do you really need to tyake it up?

Very likely id say. In the automotive sector, they are ramping up enforcement in a big way after pretty much none for decades.

Can you say roughly how much and what they were?

Not any more. Got to provide info up front.

Ill limt my replies to the breathable aspect of the insulation and render. Tread carefully. Just because products say they are breathable, doesnt mean they are in this context. Check the actual numbers. This is quite a difficult thing to do succesfully without longer term issues.

Well that keeps things pretty straight forward. No need to bugger around with lime based breathable products. Can you not clean out the cavity and refill with beads? Then add some PIR internally. Will need a decent vapour barrier though. Like many on here, punch some details into this and see at what point interstatialm condensation occures. https://www.ubakus.de/en/r-value-calculator/index.php?

You havent actually told us the wall make up and if you have a DPC etc. This will dictate what you do with regard IWI. But, yes, you do risk interstatial condensation if its not done right. But need to know wall make up. Yes, to the cold bridge. Not much you can do about that unless you insulate those too!

An overlay system will be way better than cutting grooves into the floor. But you do then need to deal with all the knock on consequences of that, odd depth fist step on the stairs being the one i really dont like. Im faced with the exact same choice. Other consequences in my case, include having to replace or re-locate the rear door, as whilst its a new decent insulated door, its so close to the floor, we cant even have a doormat. Easy answer, raise it. Not so easy as the joists for the flat roof are directly above. So either a new door or a lot of buggering about. Which is all cost. Im minded to cut grooves in the exsisting, perfectly good slab. Given the front half is a 150 year old stone cottage with no DPC, a bit of sideways heat loss into the wall is probably no bad thing. As i said earlier, its going to be £5k minium to replace the floor. So 16700 kwh of energy at current prices. Likely life expectancy of me, 25 years. You could if you were feeling keen, (i nearly did this at the last place) cut a sliver of the slab all the way round and replace with insulation. Would be difficult, time consuming and messy, but would cost bugger all if you did it yourself.

Ive said it before, but you dont have "choice" in any meaningful sense of the work when buying a house. Its not like buying a car. Generally there is no house that fits all the criteria, so compromises need to be made. Where it is, surroundings, neighbours, garden etc etc, are things that cannot be changed. So you need to be happy with them. These will all trump the EPC number. You can improve and change that. If the house is next to a motorway, you cant change that. Ive never, for a single second, concerned myself with the EPC. If i tried to buy the kind of place i want AND have a good EPC, id likely never buy anything. Not in my price range anyway. And anyway, the EOC is not worth the paper its written on. Mine was an E (just checked for the first time) jusr shy of a D. Actual performance as bought was more like a G. Insulated plasterboard sir? Excellent, let me tick the box for a few points Lets ignore that the same air is both sides of said insulation, and as per my earlier post said air has an open path to outside. The EPC is the only thing the average buyer has to go on. And its worthless as any kind of guide to running costs. Plus of course, the agents wont get a new one if the old one is still in date. When we put our house in Bucks up for sale earlier this year, it was 8 years since we bought it. So they used that. Since then, its had the old concrete floor on mud pulled up, and replaced with an insulated slab. And a few other things too. Do i care, No. Because it has precisely no effect on anything. Anyone buying that house is buying it for its location and outlook.

Still need the wifi thermostat controller though. Im not a fan of an unattended fan heater though. For saftey reasons that is. Ive got one in the office, but only use it when im in there.

Indeed. But its free. Against, say £1500 for a single split. Not much contest. Ive chucked the real money at the insulation. Though i do meed to sort out the single glazed window. Should probably do what you did, though ill need to modify as frame depth is insufficent to accept a DG unit. But at the money you paid, its a no brainer.

I think, after much google fu, that until i adopt a whole building approach, im going to steal a electric panel rad from one of the unused rooms upstairs in barn, and move it to ther new warm workshop room. As it has no thermostat, i will connect via a wifi thermostat on special from TLC for £44. Job done for now. Said room is pretty well insulated and resonably air tight. So im several hundred up against the alternatives already to spend on electricity.

But as Steamy says, you can achieve huge gains for much less than you are talking about. Sure, it migh be "inefficient" compared to the best possible, but an 70% improvement, for releatively not much money is better than no improvement. If we really wated to do something practical, do an air tightness test on every house. Mark up every hole you find, report to home owner. Seal up the holes with foam, tape, whatever. The energy saving as a nation would be huge! For, essentially, bugger all money. Your all or nothing approach wont achieve anything like the same result. If perfection is the only allowable result, the vast majority of houses will stay exactly as they are. It will only be a small handful of people that contemplate a major refurb. That wont move the dial at all. Its this sort of thinking thats got us to the welsh scheme. A fraction of 1% of houses get £45k lobbed at them. The rest remain as they are. By way of example, the house i bought last year, as ive said, is a thermal catastrophe. However it was even worse than that. I cant put a % fugure on it as i hadnt been here long enough, but the air leaks were staggering. Fixing three transformed it. Soil stck pipe goes through kitchen, up through bedroom and out of roof. Problem was, so seal where it enters the roof. So cold air circulating down, inside boxing in bedroom, under the floorboard of bedroom, and behind the kitchen cupboard as not boxed in at all. The insulated plasterboard in kitchen just stopped at the soil pipe, so that cold air was behind the insulastion as well as in the kitchen. When it was windy, it was like a hurricane in the kitchen. 1 can of squirty foam later. Fixed. Loft hatch. Amusingly, this was insulated, but the gap around it meant a lot of air movement. Was very noticable when on a ladder painting. Beading installed around hatch and expanding foam tape fitted. NO air leak. There a flat roof extension with a colf roof arrangement. Air circulates as you would expect. Sadly the dividing wall to the hall is open to the roof void. So again, outside air circulating behind plaster board. Gap filled with rockwool. Id suggest trhat this is fairly typical. Indeed, based on my observations when looking for a house, not actually that bad at all. Saw plenty worse. To do the above was a days work. The effect, and hence energy saving large.

You said this before. I asked who would pay for this? You didnt repy. I can insulate my house pretty well for something between £20&30k. (wont be compliant to current regs as thats impossible. Lets just call it £40k for the sake of it. Thats going to make a big difference to my energy costs. A replacement house is going to cost me a minimum of £200k on a like for like basis. You may well be the dictator, but where is that kind of money coming from? Not from me, thats for sure. It would be a select few (rich) that would take advantage of that planning change. Edited to add, im going to have to live somewhere while i have no house, That comes at a fair cost for the time it takes to build and complete a house. a year? Assuming of course you can find a house to move into. Hint, there not thousands of spare, ready to rent houses. Im not sure you have thought this through..................................

Quite. My point entirely.

Assuming thats an outcome, which it would seem is possible, do you really think we can stop it. By buggering around with heat pumps in the UK? Really? We are 1% of the problem. If thats whats going to happen, we wont stop that. We will need to build a wall or relocate stuff. Refer to my investment suggestion. Though it will make us poor also, so cant imagine that will happen either.