Roger440

I think you are arguing with yourself. Im really no longer sure what your point is? Ive outlined what i consider working. Being warm (lets say 21 degrees) and for a known power consumption (lets use kWh)

But its still not a gurantee of result. As i said before, i can have a guranteed SCoP. Where my gurantee of being warm.? Yes, IF its designed correctly, them i will be warm. Emphasis on "IF". I understand completely that a HP CAN be installed and made to work correctly. Theres no argument about that. And yes, there will be the pain element of capital cost. And that is an undoubted problem for many. But the primary reason out in the real world, is that lots of installations dont work properly. People who have systems that dont work properly, tell other people. That how it works. In a normal market, lets take cars again, those providing a poor product eventually go out of business. But this is diffrent. Theres a cartel, and government subsidies. Normal rules and gurantees seem to absent. If buying a HP was £500 then id be less concerned. But its up there in terms of being one of the biggest purchases you will make outside of the house and maybe a car. And for the consumer, there is, literally no gurantee or protection from crap installsations. The reasons why are of no concern to the consumer. Ill say it again, give me a guarantee of performance and power consumption, im listening, other no, ill not be a victim. When/if that happens, then im sure take up will increase.

It isnt. So tesla gave a free upgrade. Lovely. Not that i would own a car the manufacturer can tinker with remotely. But that a seperate issue. How is that relevant to their being no gurantee on a £15k HP installation.

End result is still the same. As a customer, i dont care if its the calcs wrong, poor installation etc. Its the customers problem if it doesnt work. Outside of this forum is a big world, where lots of piss ;poor work happens. If you ignore all the "anti" nonsense and weed out the ones who actually have a system and a problem, the overriding message is clear. House not warm and/or costs a fortune to run compared to what it replaced. I dont know anyone, personally, who has one and is happy with it. I do know some who are not happy. Small sample, ill give you that, but its the reality. There been enough people on here trying to resolve poorly installed systems. Where the installer doesnt want to know. Give me a guaranteed result, and im all ears. Guaranteeing SCoP is not doing that. Interesting engineering as it is.

Its still not relevant, because i dont have it available to spend on improving the insulation. Its a theoretical argument. And a political one. But not one that in any way influences what i do.

Not really the same is it? Your car is hardly new anymore. The design was fine when it was delivered. That the EGR hasnt stayed working forever with zero maintenance isnt a surprise, any more than a heat pump will shit itself eventually. It will fail one day. Maybe 5 years, maybe 10, maybe 20, but it will fail. And in the unlikely event it failed in the first 3 years, it would have been fixed, for free, under warranty. So all very different from a HP installation, where its mostly, fit and walk away. And when the callbacks get to much, fold the company and resurface next day as a diffeent onre.

No, because its not relevant. Its not £300 a year i can have, Not that it would make much difference if i did as the cost of insulation in this case is 10's of thousands.

One lone installer, good as he is, isnt going to achieve much. Though its interesting No one else gurantees it. Lets face it, they would likely go bankrupt if they did. Many offer warm woolly words. But thats not a guarantee. And no one in the real will cares about COP and SCOP. its about how much it costs to run, and are they warm. Yes, the 2 are clearly related, but not the same. Yes, the system achieves an SCOP of 4, but it cant get to 20 degrees inside isnt much use. Gurantee i can be at 21 degrees, no matter what, with a power consumption model to achieve it, im interested. Until then, and whilst performance risk lies with me and not the installer, ill sit back and wait. Can you imagine buying a car, but the manufacturer says, well we say it will work, but if it doesnt and you need to modify it to do so, its nothing to do with us, you will have to wear that cost yourself. Bonkers.

What tapering price gurantee? The day someone gurantees running costs, (im NOT saying it nreeds to cheaper) is the day heat pump installations can make progress. As far as im aware, no one does that. Its always on the home owner if the system doesnt perform. Happy to be proved wrong.

Your proposal, whilst theoretically cheaper overall, would take far longer to yield a result. Ref industrial buildings, you need to get out more. The vast majority i see being contructed are doing a steel inner skin, insulation batts, then an outer, rather than composite panels. One presumes, because, even with labour, its still cheaper*. And for good measure, all the insulation is sopping wet by the time the outer layer goes on. So it will never dry out, and we all know what a great insulator wet mineral wool is. But hey, box ticked, so its all good. Compliance achieved. And have you ever looked at attention to detail and air tightness on these places? One presumes there are no testing requirements, as the amount of leak paths is just bonkers. * ~Ive looked into this at some length as my large workshop as a single skin compressed cement board roof. I really need to insulate it. I got a quote from a friend of mine to replace with composite roof panels. (its what he does for a living on massive warehouses.) It was just bonkers. Fortunately i was sitting down. Mineral wool was far, far cheaper as a solution, be it undercladding what i have or replacing as per above. The cheapest option is to do the best i can from inside and burn oil. Theres no way doing it properly can possibly pay itself back in my lifetime.

Nowehere? You can have a high temp heat pump today. But no one can afford to run it.

Thats interesting. It gives me an option. The overload situation would be relatively infrequent, such as when running the workshop compressor, extract fan or charging the forklift. Im not keen on such things, as, being full of electronics, it will likely be more unreliable than the equipment it will manage. But it looks standalone, so should be easy to diagnose. I operate a no electronics policy as far as i can. If i have to have it, then it needs to not take down everything when it fails st 3pm christmas eve for example. Definitely no "internet" enabled stuff. Both my internet and electrical supply can be a bit flaky, so i have to take thjis into account in my plans. Hence my reluctance on an "electric only" house solution.

Whatever the reason, it complete bollocks.

Dont worry, i know the answer to my own question. Grant harvesting. And making mad money. All for "chums". I probably need to find the time to apply myself to understanding doing it DIY, as it seems, on the fasce of it, rather complicated. Though my incoming electricity supply capacity is still the biggest issue with adding 2 x heat pump load. One for house, one for barn.

Thanks. Though maybe not about the rabbit hole. Ive never done anything about my electricity supply as it just wasnt enough to worry about. At the new house however, costs are high as i have electric cooker and electric shower, and more demanding, direct resistance heating in the office etc in the barn. But as my previous post, theres not really anything to be saved unless i like lots of risk. I dont But as discussed before the alternatives will take loooong time to break even.

Agreed. Its just bonkers. As im still on the default scottish power standard rate i inherited when we moved in, im not seeing anything thats significantly better. Its just presented in the most complex difficult way imaginable so as to confuse something that should be (is) simple. I think i shall NOT contact them. I would no doubt be bombarded with emails for the rest of all time.

My understanding the reason why A2A isnt desired by government, is that it allows cooling as well as heating. And that uses more energy than no cooling. All the grants, incentives etc only apply to things that do heat ONLY. Aside from logis, lets forget that during peak cooling demand the big yellow ball in the sky will be shining and solar should be in abundance.

Which only brings us back to ProDaves point. Why are they actually costing £15-20K ?

I think you may have misunderstood my point.

Thanks. Never found that before. But to be honest, wish id never looked. How complicated is it possible to make it? But i guess thats the idea? Mind you, i dont understand it any way. Why do most of them have "eco7" day and night rates AND a flat rate. Surely its one or the other. ow can it possibly be both?

Always. Theres always commisons or back handers in the background. Does anyone actually understand the octopus website? Or do you HAVE to make contact with them to actually find out what sometghing will cost?

Exactly. Because a small risk exsists, lets stop it, price into oblivion, then wonder why progress is so slow. Do kwik fit still do the "we will do it again" if it all leaks away? I think the automotive trade and what goes on would be an eye opener for some on here. There are millions of cars running around pissing out refrigerant every day. And people keep topping them up. And when work needs doing and the AC is in the way of something, what do people think really happens?

I dont. Because there is no affordable practical answer. Theres circa 26 million houses in the UK. Id guess that at least 20 million are hopless from an efficency point of view. We have already concluded that updating the exsisting stock will have limited benefit even if it could be done well. Which it wont be. And it would take decades. And thats before we consider all the "new" problems with damp, mould etc that will be created. Or the cost. Lets say £40 - 50k a house. Its mind boggling numbers. Cant happen. Wont happen. So that leaves us with iceverge's idea, buldoze and build new. Even less likely to happen. The problems we have are ones we create by trying to artifically increase the pace of change, change that would happen over time anyway.

By any measure of logic, any victorian house (or older) still standing cant be that bad. Might be a thermal disaster, but not a bad house.

That would make no sense at all. Effectively fine those that cant afford to do so. Just to make sure they cant afford it. Makes no sense at all. So we would probably do it! I was referring to scotland specifically. In England, they have already made it such that the minister of state can specify what must be done in a specific house with a penalty of £15k or 6 months in prison. And our elected leaders thought this was a good idea. I guess i can look forward to spending my later yeas in prison. On the upside, will be better looked after than in a care home.........................