Roger440

It is sad, yes. However, i dont think we need to worry too much, as we discussed on here before, to get this done by 2030, we need to do 70k installs a week. Which is about what we manage in a year. So the reality is, its going to be a very long time. So some will lean. But ultimately, yes you are correct, many will be paying much more than they should. Indeed, plenty of people with heat pumps already are. I know a couple. To say they are not very happy would be an understatement.

I knew it would get complicated. What does all that mean?

Id suggest we are as a collective of installers. Of course there are a lot of very good capable insallers, but overall, no. The german approch to things is just different. Mostly in a good way.

Yes, im sure i can. But why would i want to? Ive twiddled with flow temps in so far as i can. All im going to do is give myself a problem installing it and setting it up, as per post above. Or pay someone to do it. Which in itself, here, would be a major struggle to get anyone on site, never mind someone that could actually do it succesfully. Never mind the added complexity and therefore reliability that it will bring. Not saying it will fail, but has potential to. If its not there, it definitely cant fail.

I understand its purpose. Saying there is zero complexity is a stretch. By your own admission you need to calculate a curve based on your house heat losses. Id suggest its now got quite complex. Who knows what the heat losses are? I dont. The installer definitely wont. Given the homeowner certainly isnt going to do it, it falls to the installer. With best will in world, its unlikely to be right first time out. So repeat visits will be necessary to get it refined. Not going to happen for your average budget installation.

Hardly dramatic. The rest of your post merely goes on to confirm my point!

Im not sure i have one. Im just the end user. But i know is broken and pointless. I had a suite of certificates at the last place. Not one job had been done to regulations. Not one. Including the whoe septic tank debacle i have recounted before. So what do these "certificates" tell me. Who do they benefit? They certainly didnt benefit me as it turns out they were not worth the paper they were written on. And this on, what you would describe as the biggest proportion of applications. Though it needs pointing out not on the biggest proprtion of actual work being done.

Yes, easy to set up badly. But the result is still warm. Wasteful, maybe, but warm. Im on house 4. None have had WC. All have worked fine. Its just another level of complexity to go wrong. Ive seen enough threads on here to know this has set up problems written all over it.

Ive said this many times. And why a big change in pricing cant happen.

Problem is, its just not true. Maybe in an ideal world, but in the real world, its much more likely you will get a gas boiler set up installed and working with no fuss or drama. I keep going round the loop, considering my options, but its such a complex subject to get your head round, that i usually just give up. And im willing to try. Most people are not interested. Just want to pay money to someone to do it right. And of course, which everyone keeps ignoring, is even if you could make the running costs "cheaper" by manipulating the market, it still makes no economic sense at all to pay to swap. Sure, if its a new build, thats entirely different, but just new builds isnt going to move trhe dial. Ive got a 5 year old oil boiler. No amount of market manipluation is going make swapping to a HP anything other than a big outlay with a very long payback. I may well take that long term view, though currently minded not to and wait until someone else pays for it as government becomes ever more desperate. And enjoy cheap heatig in the interim.

Im not sure that much of a reason to leave it as it is?

Brilliant arent they!

So, you have arrived at a position where its cheaper to run. Thats good. You seem to have forgotton about the installation cost. And disruption. Thats before we think about insulation. Thats going to be an awfully long payback period. I think its fair to say, the demographic on here, can and do take long term view and will invest in "stuff" that will benefit over the long term. For the vast majority surviving month to month, how do you envisage that will work? Frankly, doesnt matter if the payback is 5 years, or even 3 years, its not afforable when you have a functioning heating system already.

Forget the stupidity, narratives, education and all that other stuff. What you need is systems being installed, by compentent people that work, and can be operated with no more fuss than a conventional system. At scale. Not going to happen. Wont happen, Cant happen.

Brilliant. Where do i sign up. Oh wait? I just need a spare £200k. Seems to be a major flaw in that plan................................... Edit to add, looks like ill be going down that rabbit hole. For one simple reason, much as i would love to build a new house, and explored just about every possibility, the reality is, it wasnt affordable. Wasnt then, isnt now, isnt going to be either.

I agree with this summary. However, it rather asks the question what is the whole BC inspection process for. What does it achieve? It clearly cannot pick up a faulty design like this (lets assume it is for the moment) for the reasons you state. The BCO will be reliant on the reports on ground conditions, and the corresponding foundation design. So long as he sees a set of plausible calcs, its good to go. To expect the BCO to check the integrity isnt realistic. Nor can there possibly be any comeback on the BCO. So again, what is the point? At a more basic level, installation of insulation, for example. They want to see it fitted. Doesnt care if its poorly fitted or doesnt even work, because cold air can circulate both sides. (see nce pretty picture in other thread). So long as its there, of the required thickness, tick in the box. So again, what is the point. Then of course, involving the BCO, is entirely optional. If you are a big developer then the last people you want on site. So dont have them there. So again what is the point? I really cant see what they are for beyond a means of employment for a number of people.

If connecting to the cast iron stack, id definiitely be checking it not blocked at the base. A 100 years plus of rusty scale falling done can often block it up as no actual fluids run done it to keep it clear.

Last point is subjective. And wont happen either. Thats exactly why so many of the wheezes dont get off the ground. And the purchasers are secondary, its the planners to get past first.

No need for them to have been signed off. They can sign them off themselves. Only first one needs inspecting. Whilst we dont know the actual details, i suspect just another example, as though it were needed, that the BC system is broken.

Nice. Good to see someone doing it. But 5 is not going to change much. The big boys are not using them. Until they do, at a mass markiet level, life continues as normal.

I suspect you are right. So just another wheeze to line the pockets of the "approved" installers. As steamy says, that "discount" will be swalled up by the installers. Meanwhile, im excluded.

Id agree, the way we build houses seems bonkers. And stuck in the stone ages. Whilst i know it happens to a limited degree, the solution to me seems to be build in a factory. But for some reason, this seems to be more expensive. Which doent compute in my mind. But the pace of change is glacial in the building industry. Im not sure what will change that. If i was 20 years younger and had the captial, its something id consider doing as a business. I think the bit thats missing, is any such system needs to churn out traditional looking buildings. All the ones ive seen look "different" in some way. Which surely must be to their detriment from a sales perspective.

Interesting stuff. I will in the next couple of years doing a mini refurb on the house and i keep pondering this. Im not a fan of the complexity it brings, but obviously there are plenty of benefits.

But who will build them? As always, where will the people come from?

Does this apply to purchases or does it have to be installed by an "approved" grant harvesting company installer? I couldnt see any reference to that?