Roger440

Ive spent 17 yearts running my own buisiness. The single biggest reason im not anymore, and we closed the workshop is because its wasnt possible to find, train and retain staff. Sure, some of them were technically capable, but unable to grasp the concept of employment. A few the reverse. Very few able to do both. We paid pretty well, resonable hours, didnt take the piss out of people, didnt expect unpaid work, didnt impose artifical restrictions, like degrees etc. Was still impossible. The reality is, the people we really needed, even if we could afford them, simply are not going to do dirty practical work. Why would they? They can earn plenty doing something easier and more comfortable. Same reason im no longer on the tools. Can i do it? Yes. But why would i, im capable of other things that are better rewarded. I could install heat pumps. Quite literally, nothing could persuade me to do that, in people houses, dealing with retail customers. I agree a lot of employers are unrealistic, and that doesnt help, but few younger people going through the system are going to do anything practical. If you do, you will be told, as indeed i was back in 86, that you are a failure. Thats a mindset we havent even started to tackle and would take a generation even if government could be persuaded. Feel free to theorise on the possible, but like i said, not going to happen.

Ill be dead long before oil/diesel ceases to be a thing. Im not investing on a timeline beyond 30 years. That for goivernments, not individuals.

Im on oil, so thats never going to happen, but lets assume it does. Having just been looking at A2A for my workshop*, its not going to £1500. But lets say, £2500. How is that going to combine with the heating thats there now? If they are 2 completely independt systems, which for the money we are talking about seemsd likely, how will i control it all? Im also not sure id want an air blowy thing in my living room either, but lets gloss over that too. And that my bedrooms will be cold. Yes, i would consider it. It is however, hypothetical, as electricity wont be allowed to be that cheap. Mainly because too much money is being made out of the current arrangements, and because, as already mentioned, the effect on the poorer amongst us of putting up gas prices. There is a significant chunck of the population who couldnt front up £1500 in one go. And of course that as electricity becomes a more scare commodity, prices will inevitably rise, not fall. As ive already mentioned, i think my best plan is to sit it out until someone else pays for it. Or get my income below £31k for a year. Then i can have loads of free stuff. £45k of free stuff. (31 + 45 comforatbly exceeds my income, especially take home) As targets continue to be missed, it can only be a matter of time. Probably get a free car at some point. Its not hard to see the direction of travel. People respond to the pressure and incentives before them. Its increasingly clear that why pay, if someone else will. For clarity, i think its madness and disagree at every level with that idea, but it is what it is. * Im struggling to justify even this v a direct panel heater on the wall as its only likely to have a 3 to 4 year life before i need to look at at something to heat other parts of the workshop as one entity. Probably oil! As its still by far the cheapest option even starting from scratch.

I presume you mean by vast costs, you mean the consequences of doing nothing? Even if we fitted every house in the country by next week, it will make not one iota of difference to anything. The consequences are coming regardless of fitting heat pumps or the other token gestures. This is in danger of drifting into a political arena, but i would be willing to bet a decent wedge of cash, it wont happen, even if we declare it must. There a significant pool of those people you refer to in buckingham. Trust me, none of those will be fitting any heat pumps. Ever.

You are correct that running water, even if loud doesnt irritate. Ive not really tried to understand why that is, but no amount of thinking traffic noise or a heat pump is calming will work. Because its not! ASHP's make noise. Thats unavoidable because of what they are. They are demonstrably not "quiet". They make some noise. However, some people are not bothered by it, some are. If i have to have one, it will be a long way from the house with shielding. It wont affect anyone else though, as there isnt anyone else.

Id suggest context is everything. In a town environment, probably not noticeable. In a very quiet rural environment, it will be noticable. At the last place i had a sewage treatment plant with a compressor. Which was buried, in a chamber with soundproofing. Used to drive me potty. Wife didnt understand what the issue was.

Lots an lots of good info on here. Should keep you occupied for many many hours.

Its just not going to happen, political will or otherwise. All those companies have already got plenty of work. You need, as pointed out to increase fitting by at least 20 times. Where are you going to "find" 20,000 fitters? Fitters that actually know what they are doing?

Well, actually thats exactly what we were saying. But not to worry. If we are all agreed that it isnt remotely financially viable, then thats all good. In my case to go to a HP system will require everything. So into 5 figures if im paying someone. Plus the house is a thermal catastophe. So another, bigger 5 figure sum required. The reality is it will never make any sense. The oil boiler can be repaired indefinitely. Its a worcester greenstar. Nice and simple.

Iceverge is right. Converting from a perfectly servicable gas or oil boiler to ASHP simply makes no financial sense, no matter how good the installation. You suggestion above ignores the capital cost. Which is a considerable cost. £2 a day for half the year lets say is £365. Its going to take an awful long time just to break even,.especially if you chuck in a set of batteries. Payback is well beyond a decade. Assuming nothing major goes wrong. If it does, you might be at 2 decades. If you start working on paybacks that long, then you might argue its not black and white. Meanwhile, back in the real world............................................................

Having scratched around, and read some very useful threads on here, it seems no one will sell you a pre-gassed unit without proof of the f-gas compliance of the installer. Unless its go R290 in it. Which comes with its own issues. Im presuming this is a recent development as several people on here have bought and fitted themselves. Does anyone know where one can buy without having to have an f-gas engineer? Doing so will smore than double the cost rendering the payback to long. More cost effective just to have a direct resistance heater.

Any reason this wont work well? https://www.appliancesdirect.co.uk/p/eiq-9wminv/electriq-eiq9wminv-air-conditioner?refsource=apadwords&utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&utm_id=18004559423&gad_source=1&gclid=Cj0KCQiAm4WsBhCiARIsAEJIEzUQQea9TSEQmI5FTTZlylkeMoVceoYCDqFfJyAeVF0Xub9WSSjxFVMaArhJEALw_wcB OP would need a bigger one though.

Interesting info. Im just wrapping up a "warm" workshop inside my main barn, which is 25 sqm. But currently has no heating and have been pondering my options. My aim is to sit it at 12 degrees all the time, except when i use it when i will turn it up (whatever it is) Primarily to maintain a stable environment and prevent corrosion etc. That and i hate being cold. Its a hobby after all. Its a whole other minefield ive not really looked into.

A good point. Ive been pondering the effects of beads in a cavity that has the ring main running in it. It not as bad as i feared. As you say, 2 cables feeding any given poinr.

Its SO hard to get clear advice on this. Ive just done my workshop "warm" room. PIR foil taped, then vapour barrier over. Overkill? Maybe. But better safe than sorry. Rework will be painful, both of time and expense.

Tha manufacturers disagree. Vapour barrier on the warm side is the consistent guidance as far as i can tell. You are increasing the risk of interstatial condensation.

Whilst thats useful, im not entirely sure how or what the relevance here is. There are very few houses running direct electric heating. Clearly those that do need to get swapped ASAP! The real issue is those with currently functioning gas/oil boilers. Payback period is far far longer. And often more expensive to run. Aside from the fitting challenges discussed already, i just cant see wholesale take up where payback is many years. Its just not affordable for the majority. As i said further up, i cant make the numbers stack up given i have a perfectly servicable oil boiler system, with the cheapest available fuel source, ie, oil. Of course, as im in wales, if i can get my household income below £31k, i can have up to £45k of work done (inc full house insulation). For free. But earn £1 over, you get nothing. Not a penny.

I have a similar (worse) problem. Ive got a 45 degree slopy bit as the eaves are lower than celing height. These are either completely uninsulated or stuffed with rock wall and cutting off airflow. I see no option to do it properly other than removing the the lower rows of roof tiles, membrane and battens. I could do it from inside but it will be a thermal bridge nightmare.

Im unclear where the condensation/mould is? In the room or outside of it?

Sadly, Dave is probably right. Maybe cut a hole somewhere unobtrusive and see if you can detect any air movement behind the plaster board. Especially if its windy. Steamy suggestion is where to start though. Go for the easy wins first.

Im unable to establish on the internet if my trusty worcester boiler is WC compatible. The gas ones are, but cant find a definitve answer on the oil variant. I may need to go and look inside it. That can wait as its dark and wet right now! Whilst you say its pre programmed, thats not quite true. You do need to set it up as per the video. Though clearly that simpler than calculating a house heat loss. But i guess most installers will go pessimistic to avoid comeback. For some reason on this thread, there doesnt seem to be much recognition that this is critical to the installer. Its got to be done, right, first time out. Nobody is going to pay for repeat visits, including the installer. As suggested further up, quite why this cant be an entirely automatic function is beyond me. So long as you have all the temp inputs, why is it so damn hard? Take it out of the hands of the installer or homeowner and let it sort itself out.

It is sad, yes. However, i dont think we need to worry too much, as we discussed on here before, to get this done by 2030, we need to do 70k installs a week. Which is about what we manage in a year. So the reality is, its going to be a very long time. So some will lean. But ultimately, yes you are correct, many will be paying much more than they should. Indeed, plenty of people with heat pumps already are. I know a couple. To say they are not very happy would be an understatement.

I knew it would get complicated. What does all that mean?

Id suggest we are as a collective of installers. Of course there are a lot of very good capable insallers, but overall, no. The german approch to things is just different. Mostly in a good way.

Yes, im sure i can. But why would i want to? Ive twiddled with flow temps in so far as i can. All im going to do is give myself a problem installing it and setting it up, as per post above. Or pay someone to do it. Which in itself, here, would be a major struggle to get anyone on site, never mind someone that could actually do it succesfully. Never mind the added complexity and therefore reliability that it will bring. Not saying it will fail, but has potential to. If its not there, it definitely cant fail.