QS Costings versus The Real World Query?

[Powerjen]

@Ralph our old one did just the same thing to us.  They also became incredibly unprofessional once we started complaining so we went to their professional body about them.  We also went down the legal line and told them they were in breach of the Consumer Rights Act.  They backed down eventually but this year hasn't been nice because of it all. I feel for you I hope you have found a good one now. We go to these professionals expecting they will help us...

[Russell griffiths]

You have said you are on a limited budget, so why waste it on a QS 

£2-3000 in fees will buy half a kitchen. 

[Ralph]

35 minutes ago, Powerjen said:

@Ralph our old one did just the same thing to us.  They also became incredibly unprofessional once we started complaining so we went to their professional body about them.  We also went down the legal line and told them they were in breach of the Consumer Rights Act.  They backed down eventually but this year hasn't been nice because of it all. I feel for you I hope you have found a good one now. We go to these professionals expecting they will help us...

 

The mention of RIAS and ARB code of conduct seemed to have a magical effect on ours although I was still waiting for some sort of legal letter months afterwords. 
We've ended up with what I think are an excellent architect and architectural technician, both experienced but still young and enthusiastic. Proof will be in the pudding and all that.

 

This is all stressful enough without the supposed professionals being dicks. You'll get there in the end and it will all be worth it, good luck to you!

 

[Ferdinand]

2 hours ago, Powerjen said:

 

Ah yes the joys. I am 25 mins from the nearest town... seems to automatically up any costs cause people will need to travel, that's if they will even come round to see the work of course!

 

Yes, it would .. surely. ?

 

Somewhere in the mix there will have to be at least £15-20 of time, and probably £5-10 of vehicle expenses, for each visit. Assuming 10 miles to town.

 

Unfortunate, but unavoidable.

 

In London they may still add x parking tickets per year to the overheads!

 

(Ooops. Thought I hadn’t posted that.)

Edited May 29, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Powerjen]

1 hour ago, Russell griffiths said:

You have said you are on a limited budget, so why waste it on a QS 

£2-3000 in fees will buy half a kitchen. 

 

Good point @Russell griffiths but we originally had architects who provided a proposed plan to us which we didn't believe was within budget so went to a QS who confirmed they were 3 times over budget. It was £300 well spent in our opinion because i saved us £3000 on getting plans made up for planning which would have been useless. Again, with the new architect we are doing the same to see what we can afford and what we can't.  We think that is a small outlay for us getting a clear idea of the breakdown of each individual step in every room not only the cost but the actual work needing doing, then I can see where we can cut costs and what we can do before we put anymore money into the project. We were going to use them to Project Manage and go to tender, but I will be sorting everything else out now so alot of money saved there

[Powerjen]

And good luck to you too @Ralph! I am sure at some stage we will all sit and laugh about it all! I am glad you got sorted with the old useless company and now have a great team to work with

[Carrerahill]

5 hours ago, Powerjen said:

Hi, I am wondering as to what people's experiences are on the differences between what a Quantity Surveyor prices things at as opposed to what the 'real' costs for work are? I have been told repeatedly by two architects now that they 'overegg' everything. I am needing to do house renovations (we have recently bought a 1800's cottage with low attic rooms) to get my infirm parents moved in with us.

 

Thank you.

It depends on how good the QS is and how well they keep their library of information up to date but also who they are reporting to and what their liability would be. When our firm QS things we use a library of costs that are kept up to date monthly. The different engineering disciplines will also feed into the QS library when manufacturer quotes are requested for budgeting information, sometimes the QS will even just get quotes for things that may not be simple to QS particularly a specialist system where no engineer or the QS has any experience.  There are lots of lazy QS's out there who will just go "ah call it £20 a point or £50 per m" and don't check real life data. I have QSed a couple of builds for myself using the QS library and I came within about 1% which impressed me!

 

QSing should be bloody accurate, it is their job after all, think of it as an engineering discipline, if electrical or structural stuff was not done properly there could be serious issues, QS's work must be accurate or they are no good in my eyes, like a bad engineer frankly. However, like your comment about overegging, this is also true, but it is also true for structural engineers etc. it's a safety margin. When internal QSing goes on it is accurate, as soon as it is put out to a client it can often increase as a cover - but it depends on the scope of work set out by the client. If there is a chance of the client coming back to complain or start blaming people then protection is built in, prices do change, but the client can ask to see how the prices were calculated and if they disagree one way or another they can alter unit costs which will update the cost - if however the client is looking for an accurate cost and contractually there is no chance of the QS getting it in the neck then they will supply this but the scope of work document will highlight the type of agreement and it must be understood and signed by all parties entering into the contract. 

 

A QS ought to have local knowledge to within 100miles of the project location as prices vary across the nation and also should take into consideration market and political fluctuations that may impact imports. 

 

If you were a painter and you reckon the job would take about 5 litres of paint - would you quote for 5 litres or 6? I know what I would quote. 

Edited May 29, 2019 by Carrerahill

[selfbuildaberdeen]

We went with the QS recommended by our architect.... then discovered he charges a % of predicted build costs.... obviously he then predicts them high!

Same reason you dont choose an architect who charges on % of build costs as they have no incentive to keep your costs low.

If i had known this to start with I may not have bothered. I feel your pain on this one!

[Powerjen]

@Carrerahill that is all excellent info thank you They say they are working with April costings so should be up to date.  The good thing is that because they have sat on the work for a while they are now providing a detailed breakdown of work and its cost per every element of the build, so whilst it has held things up it is also giving us a good view of where all the money is supposedly going and I can then compare costs - for instance they are quoting 800 quid a window, I have been in touch with a window company who will charge me £400 a window so it is a helpful exercise as to where I will be able to cut costs.

[Powerjen]

12 minutes ago, selfbuildaberdeen said:

We went with the QS recommended by our architect.... then discovered he charges a % of predicted build costs.... obviously he then predicts them high!

Same reason you dont choose an architect who charges on % of build costs as they have no incentive to keep your costs low.

If i had known this to start with I may not have bothered. I feel your pain on this one!

It really is a minefield isn't it! You go to a professional as you think they'll help and guide you appropriately

[selfbuildaberdeen]

2 minutes ago, Powerjen said:

It really is a minefield isn't it! You go to a professional as you think they'll help and guide you appropriately

I lost all faith in ours when i looked at his report and realised he hadn't even been able to count the number of toilets on the plan correctly.... apparently I have 2 toilets I know nothing about....that's pretty worrying.

[Powerjen]

1 minute ago, selfbuildaberdeen said:

I lost all faith in ours when i looked at his report and realised he hadn't even been able to count the number of toilets on the plan correctly.... apparently I have 2 toilets I know nothing about....that's pretty worrying.

 

You can't have too many toilets though it's good if they actually exist... I did similar with the first architect when I kept picking up on errors where he'd put something on the external plan and omitted them from the internal plan... should have smelt a rat then!

[selfbuildaberdeen]

Just now, Powerjen said:

 

You can't have too many toilets though it's good if they actually exist... I did similar with the first architect when I kept picking up on errors where he'd put something on the external plan and omitted them from the internal plan... should have smelt a rat then!

 Like you say tho you pay for these professionals because it is their job and they should be well... professional!

Where about is it you are building? Sounds like you are at the same stage as us.

 

[Powerjen]

6 minutes ago, selfbuildaberdeen said:

 Like you say tho you pay for these professionals because it is their job and they should be well... professional!

Where about is it you are building? Sounds like you are at the same stage as us.

 

 Dumfriesshire,  don't think I could do anything from scratch so you are far braver than me! It has definitely made me think I can tackle some of the work myself though! Alot of it isn't rocket science and am pretty handy

[Bitpipe]

For me, the value of the QS work we got done early on was the quantity bit and the decomposition of the build into an 18 page spreadsheet of individual line items- we treated the subsequent costs as indicative and targets to beat.

 

It was very useful being able to go to a trade / merchant and request a quote for exact square meterage of plastering, rendering etc. 

 

I suppose I could have figured it all out myself from the plans but would probably have screwed up - like when I told our landscaper that the 23m x 23m back lawn needed 225 m2 of turf 

 

[Powerjen]

@Bitpipe yes, I agree, despite what the costings may come back as the info on quantities and work involved is invaluable. ☺️ 

[PeterW]

I’ve got my QS spreadsheet that I can share @Powerjen

 

Like @Bitpipe I had a full QS done by one of the online estimating companies who provided it as PDF. I then took that and converted it to Excel and created a number of lookups so you can change the labour rates etc. Probably took me half a day but was worth it as was used for a number of things including cost reduction and also to look at stages and progress. 

[Powerjen]

@PeterW that would be brilliant thank you. I am rubbish with spreadsheets so the  calculations you mention would be a huge help ?

[LA3222]

I paid £200 for estimators online.  Not trying to shill them but I have a detailed breakdown of the build in various formats - can save to pdf or excel etc, can amend prices for parts or labour manually.  All in all I'm impressed with what I have seen so far.  If nothing else it gives me a base line for a cost analysis of the build which will hopefully be of use when applying for a mortgage.  Worth a look I would say for the small cost it is....sod paying a QS several thousands!  

[eandg]

I'd be interested in anything that could be shared... 

[Ferdinand]

On 29/05/2019 at 17:59, Powerjen said:

 

You can't have too many toilets though it's good if they actually exist... I did similar with the first architect when I kept picking up on errors where he'd put something on the external plan and omitted them from the internal plan... should have smelt a rat then!

 

I think it is @ProDave who’s house is known as “The house with X bathrooms”. Reputations can be earned ?.

[PeterW]

8 hours ago, LA3222 said:

I paid £200 for estimators online.  Not trying to shill them but I have a detailed breakdown of the build in various formats - can save to pdf or excel etc, can amend prices for parts or labour manually.  All in all I'm impressed with what I have seen so far.  If nothing else it gives me a base line for a cost analysis of the build which will hopefully be of use when applying for a mortgage.  Worth a look I would say for the small cost it is....sod paying a QS several thousands!  

 

I’ve used them as a baseline before however it sometimes has random products included where they aren’t on specs...! They are definitely done to a price. 

[LA3222]

41 minutes ago, PeterW said:

 

I’ve used them as a baseline before however it sometimes has random products included where they aren’t on specs...! They are definitely done to a price. 

Yeah I would agree it's not wholly accurate but I would say it is a useful tool to get you started.

 

The information can be easily amended from what I have seen, so with a bit of work it should become a useful budgeting tool.  Ultimately you get what you pay for - this costs a couple of hundred and I would say is good value for that price.  A full on bespoke analysis by a QS can cost 10 times that - like everything with a self build it all comes down to cash and how much people want to part with.

[Powerjen]

On 30/05/2019 at 23:16, LA3222 said:

I paid £200 for estimators online.  Not trying to shill them but I have a detailed breakdown of the build in various formats - can save to pdf or excel etc, can amend prices for parts or labour manually.  All in all I'm impressed with what I have seen so far.  If nothing else it gives me a base line for a cost analysis of the build which will hopefully be of use when applying for a mortgage.  Worth a look I would say for the small cost it is....sod paying a QS several thousands!  

 

Can I ask who you used @LA3222? After chasing the QS this week I still haven't received the rest of the costings and they haven't even been bothered to reply to say when they WILL get me the figures. Not happy. Thanks in advance.

[Alexphd1]

I fail to see what a QS surveyor would have brought to my project, why not sit down and do your own sums. At least if you are out you will have somebody to blame!! 

Edited June 2, 2019 by Alexphd1