Grand Designs at Graven Hill starts tonight on Channel 4

[Jeremy Harris]

25 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

I think this is what Kevin McCloud has been wanting to cover since about 2001, recalling no his comments when doing the Hedgehog one in Brighton, and the Estate in Brum.

 

 

I drove around the estate in Swindon he designed, The Triangle, a year or so ago, just to see what it looked like in reality, now that it's had time to be lived in.  It's not a grand design, IMHO, and the ventilation "wind chimneys" just seem to look a bit odd (and apparently don't work very well).

 

Here's what it looked like last year, (from Google Earth):

 

[Ferdinand]

17 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

 

I drove around the estate in Swindon he designed, The Triangle, a year or so ago, just to see what it looked like in reality, now that it's had time to be lived in.  It's not a grand design, IMHO, and the ventilation "wind chimneys" just seem to look a bit odd (and apparently don't work very well).

 

Here's what it looked like last year, (from Google Earth):

 

 

Having reviewed Planning Apps for several of his HAB projects, I think they have significantly improved each time.

 

I think Kevin’s worst habit is his overlove of gadgets of all kinds, whether they be bits of renew-o-tech, plywood chimneys as you say where maintenance will require a cherry-picker, or Pocket Orchards.

 

There were some cracking online exchanges back in 2013 when they were all in the Storming phase.

 

My favourite: (paraphrase)

 

Local in 30s semi: The noise is bad now that it is finished.

New local in the Triangle: I can’t hear it; I have soundproof glazing.

 

F

Edited April 13, 2019 by Ferdinand

[TheMitchells]

On 12/04/2019 at 15:59, Visti said:

The street are the first 10 plots at Graven Hill, hence why we call them the Pioneer plots.

Yup, far more. These plots were quite discounted I believe to help kick-start the Graven Hill programme so they could start marketing and pointing to active projects.

 

Ours was £255k for just shy of 500m2, which was £20 more than we'd been told when we'd originally approached Graven Hill, and £75k more than estimated back in 2015.

 

Equivalent plots in phase 1B (to the west) have been on sale for a bit now and are about £315-320k, such as #276 for example. They're increasing the number of floor levels from 2 to 3 to increase GIA to bump the price up for the same land. Starting to get a bit too greedy now methinks as the uptake and start of new plots has slowed down quite a bit. Suspect they're having cash flow issues due to everything being much prolonged with them as bureaucratic middle men/women.

 

Have a browse at their plots here: https://www.gravenhill.co.uk/map/

 

I have just found one for £189,500 which is only 272m2!!  that is ridiculusly expensive for such a tiny plot!  At least your is a reasonable size.  I certainly get the impression that Cherwell are now using the scheme to make as much money as possible.  I have just watched the latest programme of the two young 'couples' and McCloud indicates that this sort of thing is what we must do more of.  But it was only those 10 houses that were cheap enough for them to be affordable.  And it makes me SO cross as we waited four years for a Graven Hill plot only to find the ones we would consider to be unaffordable!  Yet Cherwell had always pushed the fact that Graven Hill was to show how self build could be affordable for all.  But only if you are happy to live on a tiny plot!  

 

They settled on plot passports instead, which have a chapter on the performance and sustainability requirements. See the full thing here: https://www.gravenhill.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/1982-p-p-c-plot-0156-33.pdf

Blimey - there are a lot of things that you have to comply with!  while I knew about some of it, I hadnt realised it was that detailed.  Looking at the Performance and Sustainability Requirement - can anyone say how that relates to both Passivhaus and Building Regs?  I would guess that they are somewhere in between or should I be impressed with the good levels they are demanding?

 

 

Shame. You're invited to come down and join ourselves and our neighbours to hopefully change your mind about us young-uns. Most of us are far from the stereotypical millennial that the tabloids love to hate.

I may just do that - I only live at the other side of Bicester.  Will send you a PM. ?

 

As for the second programme, I was so proud of what those guys acheived.  Okay, they may not be finished but that didnt matter.  they had a house and eventually it will all get done.  although I did wonder how that chap was allowed to live there without a bathroom or hot water!  and to manage all that for around £300k in total was brilliant.  Shame the rest of Graven Hill isn't full of these sort of houses and builders!  But it wont be as the plots are all much more expensive.  Sad!

Edited April 13, 2019 by TheMitchells

[Visti]

11 hours ago, TheMitchells said:

I may just do that - I only live at the other side of Bicester.  Will send you a PM. ?

 

As for the second programme, I was so proud of what those guys acheived.  Okay, they may not be finished but that didnt matter.  they had a house and eventually it will all get done.  although I did wonder how that chap was allowed to live there without a bathroom or hot water!  and to manage all that for around £300k in total was brilliant.  Shame the rest of Graven Hill isn't full of these sort of houses and builders!  But it wont be as the plots are all much more expensive.  Sad!

 

Please do! We could always use an extra pair of hands, even just to look around! Build starts proper in June.

 

You are right unfortunately, Graven Hill is certainly no longer for the layman. Plot prices have risen significantly and the costs are spiralling upwards due to multiple factors.

 

Then again, was on site today and saw our neighbour get as excited as a kid as the last of his render went on. Also met some very keen and prospective buyers who will hopefully buy the plot opposite ours. For me, the value in Graven Hill isn't them or their processes. That is all marketing. No, it's all about the community we're building ourselves.

 

 

Edited April 14, 2019 by Visti
Clarification

[Ferdinand]

7 hours ago, Visti said:

 

Please do! We could always use an extra pair of hands, even just to look around! Build starts proper in June.

 

You are right unfortunately, Graven Hill is certainly no longer for the layman. Plot prices have risen significantly and the costs are spiralling upwards due to Brexit. 

 

Then again, was on site today and saw our neighbour get as excited as a kid as the last of his render went on. Also met some very keen and prospective buyers who will hopefully buy the plot opposite ours. For me, the value in Graven Hill isn't them or their processes. That is all marketing. No, it's all about the community we're building ourselves.

 

 

 

Is there security around the whole site, or can one just roll on in and drive around for a nosey from the road?

 

I did notice that the drone shots studiously avoided displaying views of the sewerage works in their aerial panoramic sweeps.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited April 14, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Visti]

@Ferdinand each self build is in charge of their own security, but there is a police patrol car that drives through every once in a while. Else the roads are all publicly accessible and we get a lot of touring eyes driving through. More so now with the GD show having been aired.

 

Have had several break-ins on plots, so installation of CCTV has occured on a lot of sites. We are hoping that as neighbours move in that these incidents will reduce. Going to be discussing the issue today at our liaison group and raising it with Graven Hill.

 

Train tracks and sewage plant are certainly near by, but neither is much of a concern. I rarely hear let alone notice the train, and never smelt the sewage plant. Then again the pioneers are much closer, can't speak for them.

[Sue B]

I love the idea of a whole area of self-builders.  It does make for a community feel when people have only just met.  

 

Our build now will feel quite lonely - the last one we were just another of the neighbours, going through the same thing.  We all knew and understood how other families were feeling as we had all been there.

[ProDave]

This self build community is quite common up here, though on a smaller scale.  The road we are in, has 12 houses.  9 of those are self builds, but done gradually over the last 20 years.  Not many original owners still in them though, most tend to build a house, live in it for a few years and move on.  2 of the self builders built a house in the street then built another a few doors away (we are one of those 2)

[newhome]

I just got round to watching these. Someone should keep a copy of the second programme and play it to the VAT tribunal if HMRC refuse their VAT reclaim on the basis that when a house is occupied you are accepting that it is habitable. That was an extreme example but wasn't far off where we were when we moved into the house here. Kitchen / family room complete and the downstairs shower room sort of complete, and there was hot water but other than that nah. We stuck in a bed and a sofa and that made the house at that time. It was still more spacious and comfortable than the caravan. The floor wasn't even down upstairs. Had a few boards over some of the joists. There was an absolute ton of stuff still to do. That's the reality for many self builders especially when they have to sell their previous property to release funds to finish the new one. That programme brought that to life really well. 

 

I admire the guy whose partner left him but he still got on with the build, and he knows that he will need to complete the rest as and when time and money allows. It's a pretty lonely experience trying to finish a build on your own and he was on his own for most of it. 

 

[ProDave]

1 hour ago, newhome said:

I just got round to watching these. Someone should keep a copy of the second programme and play it to the VAT tribunal if HMRC refuse their VAT reclaim on the basis that when a house is occupied you are accepting that it is habitable. That was an extreme example but wasn't far off where we were when we moved into the house here. Kitchen / family room complete and the downstairs shower room sort of complete, and there was hot water but other than that nah. We stuck in a bed and a sofa and that made the house at that time. It was still more spacious and comfortable than the caravan. The floor wasn't even down upstairs. Had a few boards over some of the joists. There was an absolute ton of stuff still to do. That's the reality for many self builders especially when they have to sell their previous property to release funds to finish the new one. That programme brought that to life really well. 

 

I admire the guy whose partner left him but he still got on with the build, and he knows that he will need to complete the rest as and when time and money allows. It's a pretty lonely experience trying to finish a build on your own and he was on his own for most of it. 

 

This VAT reclaim deadline is starting to worry me.  I think for us it is handy the council tax man has delayed valuing the house until the summer at least, so that has bought me a bit of space during which we are still living in the caravan (cough). But I am planning to get a temporary habitation late in the summer and do the VAT claim then.  There will still be some things left to do which I might miss out on the vat for, but some big items like the windows for the sun room I can still get VAT free as I will be getting them "supply and fit" and it won't be completed then so it still perfectly valid for a new build.

[newhome]

7 minutes ago, ProDave said:

This VAT reclaim deadline is starting to worry me.  I think for us it is handy the council tax man has delayed valuing the house until the summer at least, so that has bought me a bit of space during which we are still living in the caravan (cough). But I am planning to get a temporary habitation late in the summer and do the VAT claim then.  There will still be some things left to do which I might miss out on the vat for, but some big items like the windows for the sun room I can still get VAT free as I will be getting them "supply and fit" and it won't be completed then so it still perfectly valid for a new build.

 

Yes indeed, I think if you don't need to wait to do the VAT reclaim then you should do the reclaim then if you can and buy as much in the way of materials to finish things off as you can afford before you send it in. I don't supposed we'll see the outcome of the first such tribunal case for a while so it's running blind a bit until then, and of course that first case may bring good or bad news for the self builder. 

[ProDave]

If I can buy the last velux windows, the stuff for the en-suite bathroom and last of the stuff to fit out the house we will be about there.  Then it is just that sun room, and loads of outside stuff like decking, steps, ramps, landscaping etc.

 

In the mean time the ethos seems to be a reasonably constant run of stuff purchased so nobody can claim we stopped buying stuff so "must have finished"

[recoveringbuilder]

Yes, we’ve had the council tax people sniffing around, told them we weren’t finished and she said she had driven past and it looked occupied, of course all our furniture is here to save on storage costs and curtains up to deter break ins, we finally got the digger back in today to cover up remaining drains and level out the site so I’m going to buy the decking and slabs etc(for paths and steps) then let them come out and once that’s done make our reclaim 

[Sue B]

Kevin McCloud interviewed on The One Show tonight about Graven Hill

[ProDave]

Care to precis what he said?

[eandg]

I enjoyed both episodes but was very surprised at how expensive a build the older couple in week one had given it was relatively small (2 beds, I think) and the guy did much of the work himself (he estimated £100k worth of labour) yet they still spent the best part of a few hundred thousand on the build. 

 

Shame to hear from Visti that the original model (which at 100k a plot is only just about affordable to a two professional wage household unless they have family wealth - though I guess there's plenty of housing equity floating about that part of England) is no more. Out of interest, how much does the average family home go for in that part of the world? 

[ProDave]

Cheapest 3 bed detached in Bicester according to Right Move is currently £295,000

 

About the price of a BARE PLOT at Graven Hill now.

 

That makes £100K about right for a plot, and if you are careful, your self build house may cost no more than just going and buying one.  A £300K plot needs to be a large plot in a stunning location with stunning views and no neighbours (and no fear of new neighbours) not a small plot on what is going to end up a very big housing estate.

 

I am sorry but I think the project has "gone wrong"

[TheMitchells]

Maybe once the initial interest in Graven Hill has passed they may start reducing the costs of the plots, otherwise I think they will have an awful lot of bare plots! However, I am sure they will be getting lots of interest now with everyone asking where they can get hold of a £100k plot!

[ProDave]

Good point.  A steady stream of people going into the sales office and walking out registering their disgust when they find they can't buy a plot for £100K might drive the point home,

[newhome]

I had a look and there are plots available for 255k. Still overpriced I think given how many there are stacked into a relatively small area. 

[Visti]

16 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Good point.  A steady stream of people going into the sales office and walking out registering their disgust when they find they can't buy a plot for £100K might drive the point home,

 

Karen, the MD, was at the monthly liaison group meeting this Sunday and mentioned they had about 7000+ hits on the website at it's peak after the first episode, and about 4500+ after the second. Absolutely flooded with enquiries with 1 reservation made and 1 near to reserving.

 

A lot of the enquiries were for the £100k plots, and some even asking for free plots! I think to you your point a fair few will leave severely disappointed.

 

Those sorts of prices they're asking for are however not far off market value here. New land with residential planning permission is unheard of in these parts, particularly this close to Oxford. Not suprised they're jacking them up so high, even if it looks crazy. Just think of all the London commuters who fancy something a bit more convenient and new than a post-war build.

[ProDave]

Nationwide free detailed advertising on TV, over 11,000 hits on the website and just ONE confirmed sale.

 

That sums it up, that the plots are over priced.

 

I don't know what the answer to making plots available for self build is, but this is certainly not it. Unfortunately.  What price do large developers pay for a plot? Certainly not £250K each.  If schemes like this cannot deliver affordable plots then perhaps it is time that planning law changed and demands that say for every 100 houses granted permission to the mass developers, one must be sold at the same plot price for self build?

 

Sadly this seems to be turning into a prime example of "never underestimate how badly something can be run if left to local government"

[Ferdinand]

8 hours ago, ProDave said:

What price do large developers pay for a plot?

 

That would be as little as possible ?.

 

A very complicated question depending on the status of the land, as the land value is the thing the absorbs the variations.

 

This post on valuation from Strategic Land Partners is interesting:

https://strategiclandgroup.co.uk/2017/03/13/the-essential-guide-how-much-is-my-site-worth/

 

eg from that post say you get PP for 5% fewer houses on an estate of 140 average selling price 140k, and costs increase 5%. Residual land value swings 30%.

 

Quote

The starting point for the calculation is how much the houses will sell for once they’re built. That is difficult to work out. If you’ve sold your own house, you’ll know that different estate agents will give you different estimates of value; they don’t always get it right.

 

It also depends on the sort of planning permission that you get. What if instead of getting planning consent for 100 homes, you got permission for 95? Or 105? How will that impact the value? And how will you know if a developer could have permission for more homes?

 

Costs are also difficult to work out. Sometimes they are based on estimates, but how accurate are those estimates? And they depend on the design too. Does the development really need foundations that deep? Or is there a cheaper solution?

These points might not seem important, but they can have a huge influence on the value of your site.

 

Take a look at the table below as an example. If you reduce the total income by just 5%, and increase the total build costs by just 5%, then the land value falls by 35%. That’s why there is often a wide range of values when house builders make offers for a development site.

 

 

Ferdinand

Edited April 17, 2019 by Ferdinand

[Ferdinand]

9 hours ago, ProDave said:

Certainly not £250K each

 

I would think Gravenhill will have paid perhaps 10-25% of that, depending on the Planning Status, with a complementary overage clause and equation. Or it may be that little comes through for the Council until the sale of each plot. The MoD may have a similar arrangement.

 

It will depend where the project investment cashflow comes from; they will have spend 10s of millions by the time they got anything back, which will have been laid off somewhere.

 

Opinion from @Mr Punter and @PeterWwill be welcome.

 

Information may perhaps be gleaned from the accounts of the company and the Council - the council will not break it out, but it will be so dominant as to be a sore thumb.

 

F

Ferdinand

 

[Jeremy Harris]

6 minutes ago, Ferdinand said:

 

I would think Gravenhill will have paid perhaps 10-25% of that, depending on the Planning Status, with a complementary overage clause and equation. Or it may be that little comes through for the Council until the sale of each plot. The MoD may have a similar arrangement.

 

It will depend where the project investment cashflow comes from; they will have spend 10s of millions by the time they got anything back, which will have been laid off somewhere.

 

Opinion from @Mr Punter and @PeterWwill be welcome.

 

Information may perhaps be gleaned from the accounts of the company and the Council - the council will not break it out, but it will be so dominant as to be a sore thumb.

 

F

Ferdinand

 

 

I believe they paid less than that, as the land was disposed of by the MoD pretty cheaply, for a host of reasons.