Jeremy Harris Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 Just now, Ed Davies said: It's really not that difficult but I do wish we used MJ (megajoules) rather than kWh as they do seem to confuse people a lot. (1 kWh = 3.6 MJ). I agree wholeheartedly. The kWh is a bastardised unit that shouldn't exist, in my view, as it constantly seems to cause confusion. Far better to just stick to SI units, not that I suspect we'll ever get the energy companies to agree. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 25 minutes ago, Ed Davies said: I do wish we used MJ (megajoules) Me too. If all energy was sold by the joule, it would be easy to compare. Even food has the kJ on it. But when I asked the local WeightWatchers woman what it meant, she had no idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 6 hours ago, JSHarris said: as it constantly seems to cause confusion Did somebody call my name........? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 7 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said: Did somebody call my name........? As in Confucius said? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 6 hours ago, Ed Davies said: No, the system requires 3 kW of POWER input, so 6 kWh of ENERGY over two hours. He clearly meant energy. It's really not that difficult but I do wish we used MJ (megajoules) rather than kWh as they do seem to confuse people a lot. (1 kWh = 3.6 MJ). Ed, I was tired ok Confusion is prevalent when you've had a day grouting in temps over 24 degrees. 2 heads are always better than one, so if you persist, I promise to learn Tired of Wales. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 Just now, Onoff said: As in Confucius said? As in, tired and bedraggled. aka easily confused ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 "That was mega Joules!" - Jamie Oliver 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted July 18, 2019 Share Posted July 18, 2019 3 minutes ago, Onoff said: "That was mega Joules!" - Jamie Oliver Always one step ahead.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triassic Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 (edited) Heat tech company @SunampLtd has signed an agreement with Chinese partner Jiangsu Gomon New Energy to move forward with manufacturing of an innovative heat pump water heater @Ivan_McKee attended the signing! #ScotInnovation #ScotlandCANDO via Twitter Edited July 19, 2019 by Triassic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Triassic Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 (edited) 7 minutes ago, Triassic said: an innovative heat pump water heater I wonder what this is? Anyone seen anything about it? ps... Just find this... https://www.insider.co.uk/news/sunamp-signs-deal-chinese-firm-18327858.amp?__twitter_impression=true Edited July 19, 2019 by Triassic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joth Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 No real info, but I can place some guesses (given current SunAmp is a PITA to use with heat pumps, but that way the future obviously lays). Intrigued if it's a split system approach, as that would seem to be where biggest improvements could be gained (purely guessing) https://www.sunamp.com/sunamp-and-gomon-sign-new-agreement-at-ministerial-event-in-shanghai/ https://www.insider.co.uk/news/sunamp-signs-deal-chinese-firm-18327858 https://www.scotsman.com/business/sunamp-set-to-shine-with-global-reach-under-chinese-deal-1-4966711 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 My guess is similar, that they are looking to leverage the extensive Chinese knowledge and experience with direct heat exchanger heat pump water tanks (the Ecocent is an example of the very common Chinese direct heat exchanger heat pump water heaters). There are literally dozens of manufacturers of this sort of integrated heat pump/hot water tank combination on sale in China, so my guess is that the idea here may be to do something similar and integrate a direct heat exchange heat pump into a Sunamp PCM store. Seems like a good idea in principle, and the chances are that using a direct heat exchanger might just be enough to get up to the ~60° to 65°C needed. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joth Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 7 minutes ago, JSHarris said: Seems like a good idea in principle, and the chances are that using a direct heat exchanger might just be enough to get up to the ~60° to 65°C needed Nice, that's what I was wondering/hoping too. I guess the challenge is can it reach it on the very coldest of days. With PCM, it's kind of all-or-nothing situation. Looks like Jiangsu Gomon do plenty of 2-stage high-temperature monoblocks, but it'd be something of a disappointment if that is it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 1 minute ago, joth said: Nice, that's what I was wondering/hoping too. I guess the challenge is can it reach it on the very coldest of days. With PCM, it's kind of all-or-nothing situation. Looks like Jiangsu Gomon do plenty of 2-stage high-temperature monoblocks, but it'd be something of a disappointment if that is it. The way the Chinese water heaters work (there are loads of them, and Jiangsu Gomon is one manufacture of them: https://www.chinagomon.com/model-a.html ) is that they use warm air from the house as the intake for the heat pump, so they can deliver a high temperature to the water as the ΔT is still reasonable. They can be integrated (sort of) into MVHR, but they do unbalance the MVHR a fair bit whilst heating the water and so cause a small heat recovery deficit for that period of time. I'm not sure if any of the manufacturers in China have taken heed of the way that companies like Genvex, Paul and Nibe have managed to get around this potential problem with exhaust air heat pumps or not. Last time I looked all the Chinese systems were still using fixed rate heat pumps for these integrated tank heaters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted July 19, 2019 Share Posted July 19, 2019 23 minutes ago, JSHarris said: Jiangsu Gomon is one manufacture of them Bit of a worrying statement on their website. I thought it was 1.6180..... ♦ 1:1 Gold Ratio The unit and water tank are matched with a gold ratio to eliminate the phenomenon of disharmony, so that it is more energy-saving and professional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 On 17/07/2019 at 22:39, Nickfromwales said: Depending on the electrical and wet connections being all complete, commissioning ( eg switching it on ) is down to flicking a switch. The unit will have to have been ordered according to the intended application, ergo the control unit will come pre-selected to the correct 'setting', so it's very much plug and play. Sizing, and selecting the correct 'model' is where the attention needs to be, as many have fallen foul of licking their finger and waving it in the air in the days ( now gone, thankfully ) where Sunamp would sell direct to the public........ 20 minutes is actually more like an hour, per size increment, where you'd need to stay with the unit until it heated fully for the first time. eg a size 6 unit would require babysitting for the first 2 or so hours ( 3kW required for ~2 hours = 6kW input = fully charged from 'empty' ) so you know it runs the heating cycle and 'knocks off' as it should. I sort of asked because the company SunAmp have put me in touch with want everything to already be in place, plumbing and wiring, and the actual sunamp, then they 'commission' it, but the price quoted for this is £600. They have already told me what size sunamp they would want to install. Is this what you'd expect? I don't know what questions to ask them really. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 This is a list of the work that needs to be done to install a Sunamp, assuming that there is switched power and water pipes available at the installation position: Unload Sunamp from vehicle and move to the installation location. Unpack it, check for damage and prepare the pipe connections (parallel up the two sets of 22mm heat exchanger pipes) - perhaps 1 hour's work at the most Electrical works - fix controller box to wall adjacent to Sunamp, connect the Sunamp power and sensor cables, and the incoming power cables - perhaps 30 minutes work Plumbing works - connect Sunamp inlet pipe to cold supply pipe and connect Sunamp hot water outlet pipe to hot water pipe. Perhaps install a thermostatic mixer valve. - perhaps 1 hours work at most Perform electrical safety testing and water leak testing, turn power on to the unit and check that the controller initialises and that the heating element is powered. Wait for ~30 minutes to allow Sunamp to partially charge and test to ensure warm water is being supplied - perhaps 1 hours work The total time taken to install and commission a Sunamp should be around 3 1/2, perhaps 4, hours, and although two people are needed to lift and manhandle the unit into place, everything else is a single person job. The cost of that depends very much on how far the installer has to travel. £600 sounds a bit steep to me, I'd have thought maybe half that might be more reasonable, but if the installers (assuming it's two of them) have to drive for half a day to get to you and back, then £600 might not be too far off the mark. Is there any reason why your plumber and electrician can't plumb and wire the the thing up? It's no harder to install than a normal hot water cylinder with an immersion heater, if anything it's a bit easier to work on, as all the pipe connections are easy to get at in the top of the unit. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 38 minutes ago, JSHarris said: This is a list of the work that needs to be done to install a Sunamp, assuming that there is switched power and water pipes available at the installation position: Unload Sunamp from vehicle and move to the installation location. Unpack it, check for damage and prepare the pipe connections (parallel up the two sets of 22mm heat exchanger pipes) - perhaps 1 hour's work at the most Electrical works - fix controller box to wall adjacent to Sunamp, connect the Sunamp power and sensor cables, and the incoming power cables - perhaps 30 minutes work Plumbing works - connect Sunamp inlet pipe to cold supply pipe and connect Sunamp hot water outlet pipe to hot water pipe. Perhaps install a thermostatic mixer valve. - perhaps 1 hours work at most Perform electrical safety testing and water leak testing, turn power on to the unit and check that the controller initialises and that the heating element is powered. Wait for ~30 minutes to allow Sunamp to partially charge and test to ensure warm water is being supplied - perhaps 1 hours work The total time taken to install and commission a Sunamp should be around 3 1/2, perhaps 4, hours, and although two people are needed to lift and manhandle the unit into place, everything else is a single person job. The cost of that depends very much on how far the installer has to travel. £600 sounds a bit steep to me, I'd have thought maybe half that might be more reasonable, but if the installers (assuming it's two of them) have to drive for half a day to get to you and back, then £600 might not be too far off the mark. Is there any reason why your plumber and electrician can't plumb and wire the the thing up? It's no harder to install than a normal hot water cylinder with an immersion heater, if anything it's a bit easier to work on, as all the pipe connections are easy to get at in the top of the unit. Hmm that’s what I thought. Also they aren’t moving the sunamp they want that already in place so take an hour off I guess. They are also coming from the same county as far as I’m aware, the border is about an hour away I thought you couldnt get sunamps direct to consumer anymoee and had to go through an installer? If not I will see if I can convince the eventual electrician and plumber! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 I can understand them wanting to insist on the unit being correctly installed for warranty purposes, but it's no harder than installing a hot water tank with an immersion, so it's pretty hard to see how the installation could be messed up. The older Sunamp PV was slightly more complex to install, as it needed a drain and tundish for the pressure relief valve, but Sunamp were fine with "training" me via a half hour phone call and some email exchanges. Not sure how long their installer training sessions are, but I'd be surprised if they took more than 1 day. If the installer is a one-man-band and doesn't have to travel from miles away, then £600 for connecting four pipes on the Sunamp to two pipes in the house, plus connecting up four cables, seems seriously OTT. Might be worth sending a PM to @Nickfromwales to discretely ask his opinion (off-air). Technically I'm still a Sunamp installer, I think, and have installed two of them now. If I lived closer I'd pop over and double check that your plumber/electrician had made the right connections, turn the thing on and check it was OK for a cup of tea and bit of cake! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 22 minutes ago, JSHarris said: I can understand them wanting to insist on the unit being correctly installed for warranty purposes, but it's no harder than installing a hot water tank with an immersion, so it's pretty hard to see how the installation could be messed up. The older Sunamp PV was slightly more complex to install, as it needed a drain and tundish for the pressure relief valve, but Sunamp were fine with "training" me via a half hour phone call and some email exchanges. Not sure how long their installer training sessions are, but I'd be surprised if they took more than 1 day. If the installer is a one-man-band and doesn't have to travel from miles away, then £600 for connecting four pipes on the Sunamp to two pipes in the house, plus connecting up four cables, seems seriously OTT. Might be worth sending a PM to @Nickfromwales to discretely ask his opinion (off-air). Technically I'm still a Sunamp installer, I think, and have installed two of them now. If I lived closer I'd pop over and double check that your plumber/electrician had made the right connections, turn the thing on and check it was OK for a cup of tea and bit of cake! Aw thanks Jeremy, I make pretty damn good cake but probably not good enough to entice you all the way to Cornwall ? Now I think of it there is a website that is still selling them “off the shelf” I think so could always do that if i Do want to sidestep the approved installation. Will have to look into any warranty implications! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 2 hours ago, Roz said: all the way to Cornwall Which end of Cornwall are you. Half hour from the Tamar is kind of Bodmin/St. Awful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dimpsy Posted July 29, 2019 Share Posted July 29, 2019 bublshop sell them http://www.bublshop.co.uk/sunamp-heat-batteries-series-3/c326 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roz Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 10 hours ago, SteamyTea said: Which end of Cornwall are you. Half hour from the Tamar is kind of Bodmin/St. Awful. A little west of Truro! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted July 30, 2019 Share Posted July 30, 2019 8 minutes ago, Roz said: A little west of Truro! So am I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hsquared Posted August 3, 2019 Share Posted August 3, 2019 On 29/07/2019 at 22:38, dimpsy said: bublshop sell them http://www.bublshop.co.uk/sunamp-heat-batteries-series-3/c326 Hello! (I'm new to this forum so hope it is alright if I jump in here!) We have been trying to get information on getting a Sunamp installed just for our hot water and powered from E7 grid electricity - however the company Sunamp have put us in contact with to buy & install we are not having good experience with - they have quoted £4180 for the a '9 wk hot water model', but seem more interested to try and sell us solar panels. However now we can't get a reply out of them at all! Would anyone know of any companies around the Somerset area who install these? Or is it possible to buy and fit ourselves? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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