Please be patient - query about use of GSHP in outbuilding (no heated water needed)

[A_L]

20 hours ago, bikerchris said:

I know that Scotland can be extreme, but I can't work at 0C sitting at a desk

Sorry, do not really understand this, I have given heatloss for 20°C inside 0°C outside. If you want greater capability then heating to 20°C when -10°C outside then add 50% to heating load.

 

20 hours ago, bikerchris said:

What I'm trying to create is a building that maintains an even temp all the time

An oil filed radiator with timer and thermostat, about £40 from Lidl/Aldi will achieve this, even if only interim solution.

 

20 hours ago, bikerchris said:

The office I rent at the moment is horrible in the peak summer and only tolerable in winter. For the first time ever, I want to be able to control the ambient temperature and have it be the same all year round

An aircon unit (air to air heat pump) maybe £500 - £1000 will solve this. They can even be DIY'ed (just an example, heating output about 1.7kW)

 

http://www.cooleasy.co.uk/categories/diy-air-conditioning/unico-air/unico-air-8-hp.html

 

 

20 hours ago, bikerchris said:

if someone said that a GSHP config for what I want is around £5-10k, I'd walk away from the notion of having GSHP

I can confirm that a professional install would be in this ballpark (at least)

 

20 hours ago, bikerchris said:

Has to be said that around 500-800 watts would be generated from the computers/monitors. 

If this is anything like accurate then you need to look at low power alternatives.

Edited February 5, 2019 by A_L
wrong link

[bikerchris]

@scottishjohn Thanks for that, may be a very small boiler would be the option instead, then I guess it's just the air con I've got to sort. You don't think that's a lot of plumbing for a small space? The only thing I'm not too keen on is extending the mains water, it's not that far, only 30-40m or so. Thanks for that though!

 

@jack Thanks for answering about the willis heater, very much appreciated and thanks @dpmiller for confirming it has a stat built-in.

I'm not going for the cheapest option, but the one that offers the tidiest solution and gives me some good savings in the future...in case we stay here for a while.

 

@JSHarris Thank you for weighing in about this - if we're using electric anyway, is it sensible instead to have direct electric UFH instead of a boiler / water system do you think?

 

@scottishjohn Indeed, life is never simple!

 

@A_L Sorry, misread about the 20C you mentioned, my bad. 

 

By chance and don't ask why, but I've got around 5 oiled filled radiators and I have a plug in timer/thermostat that controls it very well - so I've got a fall back if funds get too low.

 

The only thing about about aircon is the placement - normally I'd like to place it to the rear or side, but that's not an option. The front will mainly be glazed, though I guess I could just have a single external door to the left front. I'm planning for other half to have her own room, it may not be needed so I thought have double or bi-fold doors across the front would give me the option to have the whole space to myself! Just trying to anticipate things changing!

 

Thanks for confirming the GSHP, if only I could get some bugger to actually quote for it - they seem to not be interested at all (no surprise considering the floor area), that or their website email forms don't work! I still really like having one system that does both heating and cooling (do correct me if I'm wrong that it can!).

 

Computer/monitor power needs, yes they are high because I have to render and video edit and have 3 x 27 inch monitors to power. That's one benefit to the office I rent, I have unlimited electric for the same monthly cost - I'm guessing this is only because the rooms aren't properly kitted out with their own individual meters.

 

To ALL: You've all given me a lot to think about, what a great bunch you are, and on the internet of all places ? Something that I'm still determined to do is go for a solution that heats and cools me, is cheap to run and doesn't look to ugly. Hmm, these things aren't easy! I even had a stupid notion to use GSHP to heat / cool not just the outbuilding but part of the house as well (in the extension), but of course I don't have the garden area for the pipes...Ho hum ? 

[bikerchris]

I've been digging a little deeper and GSHP just isn't possible at this small scale...what a shame. I'm going to look a little further into ASHP even if it will be unsightly...and can't be put out of sight!

[PeterW]

ASHP can be put out of sight but needs careful design for airflow. 

 

A number of commercial buildings use a type of brise soleil type setups with the end gable wall of a building and then vented panels in the roof to get airflow. It can be done but to minimise internal noise you need a very rigid structure. 

[bikerchris]

17 minutes ago, PeterW said:

ASHP can be put out of sight but needs careful design for airflow. 

 

A number of commercial buildings use a type of brise soleil type setups with the end gable wall of a building and then vented panels in the roof to get airflow. It can be done but to minimise internal noise you need a very rigid structure. 

Thanks for commenting Peter, much appreciated. In my situation, I'm kinda stuffed for discrete positioning of an ASHP unit. Ideally I'd put it on the roof (if that were possible), but it's already going to be a tall building as it is, so Planning is contentious, just depends on the perspective of the Local Authority. 

 

?

Edited February 5, 2019 by bikerchris
I'm clumsy with a keyboard

[Stones]

@bikerchris

 

I would second the suggestion of a Willis heater paired with a UFH circuit.  Ideally you would run that to provide the basic background level of heating required (which, if well insulated, shouldn't be much given you are planning something smaller than a standard double garage).  Incidental gains from human activity, lighting, PC's etc would do the rest. You could of course just opt for plug in heaters but I think the UFH would give you a much better level of 'comfort'.  Are you planning a WC and need hot water?

[bikerchris]

13 minutes ago, Stones said:

@bikerchris

 

I would second the suggestion of a Willis heater paired with a UFH circuit.  Ideally you would run that to provide the basic background level of heating required (which, if well insulated, shouldn't be much given you are planning something smaller than a standard double garage).  Incidental gains from human activity, lighting, PC's etc would do the rest. You could of course just opt for plug in heaters but I think the UFH would give you a much better level of 'comfort'.  Are you planning a WC and need hot water?

Cheers for chiming in, much appreciated. Yeah UFH heating is preferred, just to give more flex for room layout and to get an even amount of heat.

 

I'd like to have a WC, but it'll take up too much space, plus I'd have to get water to the building as well. In some ways, I'm trying to keep it relatively simple....in some ways! ?

 

[bikerchris]

Hello all,

 

I thought it had been a while, and it had!

 

As you were all so helpful, I just wanted to give an update. 

 

I've finally gotten round to starting the office build. Here's a pic of the final design...it changed quite a bit:

 

 

I've removed the shed, dug out and shuttered as of a few days ago, concrete pour happening next week.

 

[Conor]

Very tidy.

 

Why is your soil pipe white? Should be red/brown for underground use I would have thought?

[bikerchris]

Thank you, I've tried.

 

The white pipe is just something for me to get the water supply in. When I have time, I'll dig under slab, then dig a trench 750mm deep to house and lay MDPE. The gradient is bad so I have to get a maserator ?

[Conor]

Ahhh. That sucks.

[bikerchris]

Yeah it does, but I'm just doing what I can with what I've got!

[joe90]

Have you decided on heating type?. I have a small ASHP for a moderate sized house, as mentioned before what about an air to air heat pump that will do cooling as well (during Scotland’s famous heat waves ?).

[joth]

On 04/02/2019 at 20:05, bikerchris said:

I've also been told that the cost of building an office is a tax deductible (yey), so that's nice.

Bear in mind this will likely make the office portion liable for capital gains tax when the house is eventually sold. 

 

In fact even if you don't take the tax break, having an area dedicated to working can open up CGT liability, but taking a tax break to build it basically predeclares this to HMRC 

 

https://www.ftadviser.com/investments/2020/08/12/advisers-warned-of-tax-implications-of-working-from-home/

Edited May 11, 2021 by joth

[Bitpipe]

Interested in the tax position, assuming you're a company director / limited company.

 

As far as I can see, you can claim VAT (if you buy the building through the business) but only if it is exclusively for business use (so no summer houses). 

 

This is from the link below:

 

If your limited company is VAT registered, then it may still be advantageous to pay for the cost of the garden and build through the company despite not being able to offset any costs against your corporation tax bill. Some costs can be recovered through reclaiming on VAT. This option would not be available if you were to pay for the garden office personally.

For those who use the VAT flat rate scheme, be aware that you will need to ensure the cost of the materials and the cost of the construction are separate. Furthermore, the materials should be bought all together and charged as a single transaction that is at least £2,000. Under the flat rate scheme, only capital assets for individual purchases at a minimum of £2,000 can be reclaimed. This means VAT cannot be reclaimed for services, so be sure to avoid package deals where materials and installation are sold together.

Another note of consideration is that VAT cannot be reclaimed where there will be any significant personal use of the garden office. If there will be some minor personal usage, then you may only be able to claim back a portion of the VAT.

Although there is no allowance that will help cover the initial cost of the garden office, the cost of instillation for utilities such as electrical wiring, plumbing or thermal insulations can be covered as a capital allowance. This means that the cost of these can be deducted from your company’s profits to reduce your corporation tax bill. The plant and machinery allowance does not apply to anything that is not outrightly owned by the company, so if you hire any equipment such as air-conditioning just over the summer months, this cannot be claimed for. Other capital allowances that can be claimed include furniture such as desk, office chair, shelving, floor lamp etc.

 

https://www.ridgefieldconsulting.co.uk/advice-and-news/how-to-claim-tax-relief-on-your-garden-office/

[joth]

6 minutes ago, Bitpipe said:

 

This is from the link below:

 

If your limited company is VAT registered, then it may still be advantageous to pay for the cost of the garden and build through the company despite not being able to offset any costs against your corporation tax bill

 

I'm amazed a tax advisor company can write that much article and not mention the CGT aspect!

 

The normal advice is to put an exercise bike in the office and say it's a dual purpose office/gym.

https://www.taxinsider.co.uk/working-from-home-don-t-lose-private-residence-relief-ta

 

 

[Bitpipe]

6 minutes ago, joth said:

 

I'm amazed a tax advisor company can write that much article and not mention the CGT aspect!

 

The normal advice is to put an exercise bike in the office and say it's a dual purpose office/gym.

https://www.taxinsider.co.uk/working-from-home-don-t-lose-private-residence-relief-ta

 

 

 

When I started my business a few years ago I looked into claiming for home office running expenses but advice from accountant was that the benefit was marginal so I didn't bother. 

 

If you go for the dual use and the business paid for the office (to save VAT and permissible costs) then using it as a gym will attract a Benefit In Kind (BiK) charge so I suppose it's swings and roundabouts.

 

 

[TonyT]

What about air to air ie similar to an air con unit.

wall mounted indoor unit and slab mounted external unit.

 

and any hot water taken care by a point of use heater.

[jfb]

Regarding a heating source (sorry haven't read whole thread so assuming no water heating) - assuming it is a airtight/ well insulated why wouldn't you just use a small electric heater rather than the expense of an ASHP/GSHP.

 

I had a SIPs built office similar size that I just used a small heater in and it was plenty.

[bikerchris]

13 hours ago, joe90 said:

Have you decided on heating type?. I have a small ASHP for a moderate sized house, as mentioned before what about an air to air heat pump that will do cooling as well (during Scotland’s famous heat waves ?).

At the moment, I'm kinda being shoved out my current office, so priority is just getting it sealed up. So far I'm mulling over things, I might paint walls white just to see me through summer, and research ASHP's or something that'll ideally do both. 

 

Here's a very bad night time video I just did, showing where I want to put the unit - figured better to floor mount (sorry about the voice, quite tired)

 

Youtube Linkie: https://youtu.be/oGJ7pQl05CY

 

? Those Scottish heat waves must be killers! (Scotland a place I still really want to visit, on two wheels or four!).

 

12 hours ago, joth said:

Bear in mind this will likely make the office portion liable for capital gains tax when the house is eventually sold. 

 

In fact even if you don't take the tax break, having an area dedicated to working can open up CGT liability, but taking a tax break to build it basically predeclares this to HMRC 

That is really REALLY helpful to know, thank you very very much. I was going to claim all costs (as that's what book keeper suggested - note not a proper accountant), but I'm going to think twice now. Really grateful to you @joth ?

 

12 hours ago, Bitpipe said:

Interested in the tax position, assuming you're a company director / limited company.

 

As far as I can see, you can claim VAT (if you buy the building through the business) but only if it is exclusively for business use (so no summer houses). 

 

This is from the link below:

Thank you too @Bitpipe ?I'm a humble sole trader, not a director/company at all, seemed like too much work to set up. Hmm, you seem to second NOT putting the costs of the build through my business, thank you very much....it's a shame, but thank you!

 

12 hours ago, Bitpipe said:

When I started my business a few years ago I looked into claiming for home office running expenses but advice from accountant was that the benefit was marginal so I didn't bother. 

 

If you go for the dual use and the business paid for the office (to save VAT and permissible costs) then using it as a gym will attract a Benefit In Kind (BiK) charge so I suppose it's swings and roundabouts.

You are a veritable wealth of knowledge, thank you for chiming in! I think I'll call it a storage room perhaps, I guess worst case if one way or another it would cost me £10k some sort of tax or cost when selling the house, I might just knock it down and patio over a very very solid base. It would make me a bit sad to do that though!

 

11 hours ago, TonyT said:

What about air to air ie similar to an air con unit.

wall mounted indoor unit and slab mounted external unit.

 

and any hot water taken care by a point of use heate

You're a bit weird Tony, how you read my mind That was the original plan, blimey! I'm avoiding hot water, though I guess it depends if I start using the building and feel like having some I'd put it in. We'll see!

 

11 hours ago, jfb said:

Regarding a heating source (sorry haven't read whole thread so assuming no water heating) - assuming it is a airtight/ well insulated why wouldn't you just use a small electric heater rather than the expense of an ASHP/GSHP.

 

I had a SIPs built office similar size that I just used a small heater in and it was plenty.

That really did cross my mind as it'll be super-dupa insulated (external on wall and warm deck roof). I might just see how I get on like you say, use a little electric heater and see if it can cope. I just don't want a stuffy room, so that'll be the clincher. I've worked in enough dry horrible places, now I've gotta chance to change that, I'd like to take it! (caviate: unless it costs too much of course!).

 

Thank you everyone for your comments, such a surprise as I thought my post would just get buried, what a nice bunch you all are ?????

Edited May 11, 2021 by bikerchris

[Bitpipe]

10 hours ago, bikerchris said:

Thank you everyone for your comments, such a surprise as I thought my post would just get buried, what a nice bunch you all are ?????

 

Thanks, it's the members that make this place what it is - which includes you

 

You may well be entitled to claim some of what you are doing as a legitimate business expense, but just double check first - if your book-keeper seems a bit too relaxed then talk to an accountant, I expect many would give you some time for free.

 

You can always take the chance that, irrespective of what you're allowed, you bang it through the business and hope it's never noticed - plenty of folk do this but if caught the consequences can be severe and I suspect that HMRC will be out to get every penny these days to help plug the deficit!

 

I'm quite risk adverse in that respect and don't sail too close to the wind where tax is concerned. 

[bikerchris]

9 hours ago, Bitpipe said:

Thanks, it's the members that make this place what it is - which includes you

 

You may well be entitled to claim some of what you are doing as a legitimate business expense, but just double check first - if your book-keeper seems a bit too relaxed then talk to an accountant, I expect many would give you some time for free.

 

You can always take the chance that, irrespective of what you're allowed, you bang it through the business and hope it's never noticed - plenty of folk do this but if caught the consequences can be severe and I suspect that HMRC will be out to get every penny these days to help plug the deficit!

 

I'm quite risk adverse in that respect and don't sail too close to the wind where tax is concerned. 

Awww, I feel all warm and fuzzy, which is needed after the day I've had!

 

I think you're right, there is a walk in accountant/tax company just down the road from me, I'll chat to them once I've moved into the new orifice.

 

I'm also risk adverse, so I like to play it safe when the opposite can just cause me grief!

 

Thank you again sir! ?

[TonyT]

If you aren’t putting in the loo, sink, make sure you at least run some pipework and cabling and have it hidden behind plasterboard so access is easy once you change your mind and minimises disruption to the rest of the building.

 

 

[bikerchris]

14 hours ago, TonyT said:

If you aren’t putting in the loo, sink, make sure you at least run some pipework and cabling and have it hidden behind plasterboard so access is easy once you change your mind and minimises disruption to the rest of the building.

Thank you for that, as we think alike, that has been considered already  Fortunately I'm intending to vertical timber clad the inside, so the wall battens will be horizontal and allow for pipework concealed behind the finishing surface. Luckily that work will be at the 'non working' end of the building, so it should be OK for me to do bits and pieces when I have time. ?

 

Here's one of my initial concepts, it's changed now as the loo will be on the left, and where that loo door is, it'll be a cupboard/mini kitchen/NAS storage.

 

[bikerchris]

Hi all,

 

Might be the wrong thing to do, and may be I should create another post, but I finished the slab today (with a little..well, a lot of help from my friends).