Joist Hangers: too many holes?

[ToughButterCup]

Our joist hangers resemble a colander. Sooooooo many holes : 17 per side - 34 all told

Ain't got no Paslode machine gun, not likely to either...

 

So, folk-who-know-more-than-I-do, using screws or those twisty nails specified by the manufacturer, how many nails or screws do I have to use (per side) ?

 

17 is not a valid answer.  ( @Pete )

[MikeSharp01]

The manufacturer will give you a nail (so the twisty nails are a must) pattern depending on the load / situation. Think this might point at it albeit from perhaps another manufacturer: https://www.strongtie.com/products/connectors/wood-construction-connectors/technical-notes/face-mount-hanger-loads

 

[Bitpipe]

When MBC did our joists, pretty much every hole going into the pozi itself was filled with a twisty nail. On the wall plate there was a continuous line of nails but not doubled up.

 

I know this because I needed to move a couple of short joists to make space for waste pipes and they were a pain to remove!

 

Nails are short so 2-3 bangs per nail usually does it. 

[scottishjohn]

the answer I saw when searching this subject of hangers and twisty nails was a nail in EVERY hole 

[MikeSharp01]

Just now, scottishjohn said:

the answer I saw when searching this subject of hangers and twisty nails was a nail in EVERY hole

Not quite true as some holes are for manufacturing purposes so don't need nails and some are for temporary fixing although these are usually left filled anyway, look at the manufacturers data sheet. For Simpson stuff they point out the what the different holes mean (round, diamond, oval, Triangle) and whether they need to be filled or not and under what circumstances.

[Pete]

20 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said:

Our joist hangers resemble a colander. Sooooooo many holes : 17 per side - 34 all told

Ain't got no Paslode machine gun, not likely to either...

 

So, folk-who-know-more-than-I-do, using screws or those twisty nails specified by the manufacturer, how many nails or screws do I have to use (per side) ?

 

17 is not a valid answer.  ( @Pete )

17?. I was under the impression that every hole was nailed. You have plenty of jobs to be doing so hammer a few in, have a brew, do a few more, procrastinate a bit more, do some more. Even better is to find your old hammer and get SWMBO to do some!! ( Once you have measured and put them in place or may be better to let her put her own in, enough said)

[ToughButterCup]

Oh FFS you lot do love taking the wee wee. The screws/ nails will be as expensive as the joist hanger. 

..... Still, cheaper than replacing all the joists. OK, I'll take my medication and go back to bed. ?

[Jeremy Harris]

Nail gun loaded with collated twist nails.

[Mr Punter]

1 minute ago, JSHarris said:

Nail gun loaded with collated twist nails.

 

You need a special PPN nailer for this to work.

[scottishjohn]

4 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said:

Oh FFS you lot do love taking the wee wee. The screws/ nails will be as expensive as the joist hanger. 

..... Still, cheaper than replacing all the joists. OK, I'll take my medication and go back to bed. ?

maybe if they didn,t make the hangers out of old bean cans they wouldn,t need as many fixings

[Jeremy Harris]

21 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

maybe if they didn,t make the hangers out of old bean cans they wouldn,t need as many fixings

 

 

Nothing to do with the gauge of the metal and everything to do with shear loads and the max allowable bearing stress around the fasteners.  The limit is the bearing stress in the timber, not the bearing stress in the hanger holes, hence the large number of twist nails needed.

 

 

21 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

 

You need a special PPN nailer for this to work.

 

Agreed, but if you have many hundreds of nails to hammer in it may be worth getting one, or hiring one.

 

[joe90]

For the price of your build the nails cost nothing!!!, https://www.screwfix.com/p/easyfix-square-twist-nails-sheradised-3-75-x-30mm-1kg-pack/12788?_requestid=146176. I always nail every hole (but I am OCD according to some!), top tip,  hold the nail with a pair of long nose pliers for the first hit, saves you hitting your fingers (ask me how I know?). 

[Declan52]

Just make sure before you nail them home you  check and check and check again to make sure they are in the correct position. Them twist nails are easy to hammer in but a real pain in the  arse to take out. 

And just nail every hole. 

[daiking]

6 minutes ago, Declan52 said:

 

And just nail every hole. 

 

That should be on T-shirts

[scottishjohn]

14 minutes ago, joe90 said:

For the price of your build the nails cost nothing!!!, https://www.screwfix.com/p/easyfix-square-twist-nails-sheradised-3-75-x-30mm-1kg-pack/12788?_requestid=146176. I always nail every hole (but I am OCD according to some!), top tip,  hold the nail with a pair of long nose pliers for the first hit, saves you hitting your fingers (ask me how I know?). 

think 40mm would be better choice

https://tradefixdirect.com/sheradised-nails/sheradised-square-twist-nails-40-x-375mm

[Jeremy Harris]

Just checked, you can hire a positive placement nailer for around £70 a week.  I think I'd opt to hire one rather than drive 17 twist nails in by hand on every hangar.  You'd probably get them all in within a day using a PPN, and a day's hire would be less, around £40. 

 

I have a full complement of fingers on both hands, and I'd still opt to use a nail gun over driving nails by hand, any day. 

[ToughButterCup]

40 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

[...]

Agreed, but if you have many hundreds of nails to hammer in it may be worth getting one, or hiring one.

[...]

 

Talked to many chippies  (on a Friday with a nice bit of fish) and they say that it isn't wurfit.

 

They jam, they throw hissy fits, they tek sum gettin' usedto and i have a decentish 18 volt  Deutschland Deutschland Uber Alles drill/ driver.

I  have 8 fingers remaining,of which only 6 work (ahhhhhhhhh....) to specification. So I'd love to use screws. I'll need to look up the spec for the screws (unless any of you know.... anyone?)

 

PS

OK JSH, I'll hire one for a laugh this weekend and see if i can nail things in suitably inappropriate places.

[Jeremy Harris]

I have a pretty old pneumatic first fix nail gun that never, ever jams.  Stick frame builders in the USA seem to exclusively use pneumatic nailers for some reason, that's where mine originally came from. 

 

One the other hand, I noticed that the Paslode gas nailers that the guys fitting our cladding used needed to be cleaned every now and again and would periodically jam.  My guess is this is down to the residue from gas combustion, a bit like the muck that builds up in a gun.  All the pneumatic nailer needs is a drop of oil now and again and it just keep going.

[ProDave]

Every hole should have a nail in it. A PITA but not hard to do.

[scottishjohn]

16 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

I have a pretty old pneumatic first fix nail gun that never, ever jams.  Stick frame builders in the USA seem to exclusively use pneumatic nailers for some reason, that's where mine originally came from. 

 

One the other hand, I noticed that the Paslode gas nailers that the guys fitting our cladding used needed to be cleaned every now and again and would periodically jam.  My guess is this is down to the residue from gas combustion, a bit like the muck that builds up in a gun.  All the pneumatic nailer needs is a drop of oil now and again and it just keep going.

any nail gun use in a factory situation is always air powered -cheaper to buy and use

-paslode is just convenient if you got no electric on hand for compressor and no air line following you around  its not better or cheaper in the way it fixs nails

Edited December 5, 2018 by scottishjohn

[scottishjohn]

24 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said:

 

Talked to many chippies  (on a Friday with a nice bit of fish) and they say that it isn't wurfit.

 

They jam, they throw hissy fits, they tek sum gettin' usedto and i have a decentish 18 volt  Deutschland Deutschland Uber Alles drill/ driver.

I  have 8 fingers remaining,of which only 6 work (ahhhhhhhhh....) to specification. So I'd love to use screws. I'll need to look up the spec for the screws (unless any of you know.... anyone?)

 

PS

OK JSH, I'll hire one for a laugh this weekend and see if i can nail things in suitably inappropriate places.

common sense would say a screw of similar gauge will hold better than a nail any day --go up a size if you wish 

they spec nails cos they are cheaper+quicker with correct tool to put them in --saving costly labour --but you work for nothing!!

[Pete]

I have used both and they both have their benefits. The Paslode is easier to use, especially if you are on a roof. It takes about half an hour to service and is like anything else,if you look after it it will work fine. One tip though, if weather cold put the gas in your brew/pocket before using. Compressor ones are as good but can be noisy and you have to drag the air line round with you.

[Cpd]

Just to add my little bit...... I always put a few screws in to pull the bracket tight to the wall plate or joist. I put the timber in first (temporarily  supported)and then check my levels, making sure that any of the joists that have slight bows are facing bow upwards . A couple of nails and then a few screws to get the hanger really tight. Laser level on upper surface to check everything is good and all uniform. Then let the volunteers finish all the nailing ! I have found variations in my joists and sometimes need to trim down as it would drive you nuts to have one to high on a floor or to low on the ceiling! But I get a lot of dodgy timber for free !

Edited December 5, 2018 by Cpd

[MikeSharp01]

3 minutes ago, scottishjohn said:

common sense would say a screw of similar gauge will hold better than a nail any day --go up a size if you wish 

Again not quite true. Screws are not nails they are usually of different materials, have a smaller cross section at the root of the thread, and behave differently to nails in this instance and twist nails are not crude screws.

[Jeremy Harris]

@MikeSharp01 is spot on.  99% of screws have nowhere near the shear strength of nails, and much more importantly they have a reduced core diameter that increases the bearing stress in the material they are screwed into, so decreases their ability to withstand shear loads by a lot.

 

Unless a design specifically allows the use of screws for a particular application, then stick with the approved fasteners, which in this case would be twist nails.