Drawing Names

[ToughButterCup]

?

[the_r_sole]

.

Edited September 26, 2019 by the_r_sole

[ultramods]

1 minute ago, the_r_sole said:

 

CAD files can be issued to directly involved consultants with little risk, issuing them to a client for undetermined future uses is not recommended by any professional body or insurers.

If you specify that you need unrestricted use to source cad files as part of your architects appointment you will either pay a lot of money or have a very small selection of architects working on that basis - in your situation you employed a technologist so it's a different liability situation (unless they are members of a professional body)

 

The professional body is just protecting it's members (from a financial perspective) - MAGA 

[ultramods]

I personally don't want the CAD file. I  just want the ability for any suppliers for the house to be have the CAD file if required.

 

in my case the timberframe company and builder asked architect directly and were refused.

[the_r_sole]

.

Edited September 26, 2019 by the_r_sole

[ultramods]

3 minutes ago, the_r_sole said:

 

but your situation is absolutely unique because you had already had a bad relationship with your technologist, if everything had been rosy the guy would have issued the files without issue (my guess)

The relationship was still OK at the point he initially refused. 

 

My original  point is still valid, I was naive as this was my first build and my advice to anyone self building would be to have it contractually specified that the architect will provide the CAD file to any supplier that requests it. This way if the relationship  with the architect deteriorate at a later stage they are still contractually required to provide the CAD file.

[Ferdinand]

1 hour ago, the_r_sole said:

when you can change the architects plans without the knowledge of the architect it can get into a very messy situation trying to prove something isn't in accordance with the architects plans. Most professional bodies around the world advise to not give CAD source files out to clients, it's very easy for notation to be removed relating to technical compliance, or for partial information to be issued for construction purposes, once it's outside of the control of the creator of the information, it can be used for any purpose, duplicated for other sites, details changed etc.

 

Where drawings need to be issued for different purposes, the person creating the information is the best places to provide the correct information, in the example above, a setting out drawing should have the minimum information required for setting the building out to avoid confusion on site, timber frame companies only generally need wall positions and we would issue stripped out drawings specifically for that purpose - then coordinate the information back into the cad files.

 

If you only use a partial service from an architect they would generally only give you the information up to that stage, for example, building regulation drawings only require to be in pdf format, so you shouldn't expect anything else, similarly construction drawings are perfectly fine in paper or pdf format so there's no real need to issue or have third parties manipulate the base information

 

there's way more to ultramods story above!

 

Interesting reply, and good to have a conversation about it with someone with whom I mainly disagree.

 

It perhaps also depends on the arena we are in. A self-builder is different to a small developer or a custom builder. In the PP that I usually refer to on BH, it was an Outline PP then sell to a developer project, and I was able to have pretty much everything electronically from everyone - even when I did not have the software to process it.

 

But I still got slightly caught-out by assignment fees for my buyer to have a right to reuse everything to the tune of £1k+, when my purchaser made that a condition of contract, and it was not in all my contracts with my consultants. Interestingly, some of them treated it more as a positive opportunity to develop further business.

 

Your comment about it usually being OK to give information to consultants seems to me to be quite a weak protection, since I can have a contract clause with my PM (say) which gives me access to all the information s/he has received, or if in law he is my Agent then I have an absolute right to it anyway.

 

I think that if I had all these people passing information around that I had paid them all to produce with a "nope, you don't get a copy" stance, it would succeed in carving a chip on my shoulder fairly rapidly ?.

 

If an architect had an issue with me having everything electronically I would probably see that as a red-flag warning of a potentially difficult relationship and go elsewhere. But I would be wanting to work very collaboratively anyway, and perhaps be sitting in the role of 'professional PM' myself.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited September 26, 2018 by Ferdinand

[Ed Davies]

52 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said:

You cracked the security on a pw - protected pdf?

 

Triassic didn't say that, only that they edited a document they had read access to. If you can read a document (either one which is not password protected or one you know the password for) then you can, if you have the right software, produce an edited version of it. Obviously.

[the_r_sole]

.

Edited September 26, 2019 by the_r_sole

[Tyke2]

I echo the inherent dangers of relying on CAD drawings. There is a propensity to assume that because it's from a computer that it is infallible. 

If the architect issues a paper drawing or PDF, it can be relied upon as being subject to their QA. Dimensions displayed should be correct for use if read with the architects notes etc.

A cad drawing may appear as a 2D view on your screen but may be produced in 3D. So what measures 2m long in 2d (straight line)  may be any length in 3D (hypotenuse). If you take a dimension yourself from a line, or your contractor does, you can be taking a completely measure to what you think you have. You may measure an old line from a layer that is superseded, of switch off layers with notes on etc. So uncontrolled issue of CAD drawings can be pretty risky - Beware.,

[Mr Punter]

Good points by @Tyke2.  We recently had a building where a wall had to change direction by 3 degrees, so on elevation the window openings appeared slightly narrower.

[AliMcLeod]

1 hour ago, the_r_sole said:

the previous architect who copied us the original cad files which had all the notation on it saying that area hadn't been surveyed as a door was locked!

 

So what you're saying is that if these CAD files had been shared earlier, the issue would never had arisen?

 

[the_r_sole]

.

Edited September 26, 2019 by the_r_sole

[jack]

7 minutes ago, the_r_sole said:

no I'm saying if we have been given the correct information from source we would have been fine, not the uncontrolled version that someone had "had a play with" and didn't know what they were doing

 

But what the client did was clearly intensely stupid, and they (not you) ended up paying for their actions.

 

Yes, some inconvenience to you, but they could just as easily have manipulated a PDF produced by the earlier architect to remove a note about a survey not being complete.

[Ferdinand]

11 minutes ago, the_r_sole said:

 

no I'm saying if we have been given the correct information from source we would have been fine, not the uncontrolled version that someone had "had a play with" and didn't know what they were doing

 

 

There is no reason why information going through the client should be inaccurate. That is the question of the client doing things competently eg proper version control etc, and is IMO no reason for a restrictive approach.

 

On ours we maintained an archive of frozen baselines copies, that were used for supplying the next professional. It may have helped that both of us had backgrounds in IT project management.

 

Judging from your account, the client dug himself a hole then fell into it. He should have as you wanted required you to do sufficient due diligence to be satisfied that the data was reliable, then held you responsible for the reliability with whatever caveats had been agreed.

 

Ferdinand

 

Edited September 26, 2018 by Ferdinand

[the_r_sole]

.

Edited September 26, 2019 by the_r_sole

[Simplysimon]

9 hours ago, recoveringacademic said:

 

You cracked the security on a pw - protected pdf?

PM me, would ya please? I need it.

https://www.ilovepdf.com/

one of the best programmes i've found, though only three file upload to merge for free at a time, no great hassle though

[Carrerahill]

On 25/09/2018 at 15:59, Big Neil said:

I can't quite find the answer after days of surfing through various posts, but i've another probably very dumb question.

 

I know that one requires a set of drawings for planning submission - "Planning Drawings". I know one must submit drawings for building control "building control drawings". But is there a name one gives to the drawings which act as the effective instructions to a builder/roofer etc etc to tell them how to build the house. Is that "Construction Drawings"? Do these differ from the building control drawings or are they one and the same?

 

Also (side question), for anyone reading here who themselves knew exactly what they wanted and took their sketches and dimensions, to an architect/technician/technologist to do these drawings, (i.e. were looking for no aesthetic or stylistic input just the relevant structured drawings) what did you pay? I've yet to start playing around with any computer programs so i couldn't even begin to estimate how long it would take a pro to turn rough sketches into workable documents.

It depends how you are staging it I guess. The first drawings to a builder may be "Tender" or if you were sure that was what was to be build we would call them "Construction Drawings". Then on commercial projects we then would create "As Built".

 

RIBA has the stages all listed with details.

 

 

[Carrerahill]

On 25/09/2018 at 22:21, ultramods said:

I knew the risk of doing this, however I said to the architect I would sign a document to state that I was accepting the risk.

 

However us having the CAD files to give to the timberframe company etc would have still lowered the risk of human error in one of these companies in reproducing the drawings.

 

If you have the PDF's you basically have the CAD drawings. ACAD 2017/2018 (maybe earlier versions I cannot remember) etc. can convert PDF to CAD - as of ACAD 2018 full text conversion exists too. 

 

[AliMcLeod]

1 minute ago, Carrerahill said:

If you have the PDF's you basically have the CAD drawings. ACAD 2017/2018 (maybe earlier versions I cannot remember) etc. can convert PDF to CAD - as of ACAD 2018 full text conversion exists too. 

 

But if the PDF does not have the dimensions (layers turned off before saving as PDF), then you're at risk if the drawings are measured from the scale.

[Carrerahill]

On 26/09/2018 at 09:53, recoveringacademic said:

 

Windows - make file read only, thus 

 

Right click the file icon> Properties>Attributes>Read-only>check the box>OK

 

But pdf 'ing something is better in terms of security......

None of these methods are unsurpassable. You can un-tick "Read Only" in windows and that's that.

 

A PW protected PDF (in terms of read only) only locks up fully in some PDF editors - we use 3 or 4 PDF editors including BlueBeam, Foxit, Adobe and another to allow us maximum abilities. For example I can have a locked PDF made in Adobe and BlueBeam will just open it. One of our CAD tech's is a bit of a whizz at cracking and opening just about anything we need. We recently got a drawing package in PDF from a building built in 2005 it was PW protected so we could not even read it, half an hour later I had a set of ACAD drawings in my inbox from him! The client was even delighted as he had forgotten the passwords! It was epic as the other option was to have a costly survey done and draw the whole building. We don't ask any questions. 

 

 

 

 

[Carrerahill]

11 minutes ago, AliMcLeod said:

 

But if the PDF does not have the dimensions (layers turned off before saving as PDF), then you're at risk if the drawings are measured from the scale.

Perhaps in some circumstances where for example it is a fully stripped PDF and there is no scale and no dim's on the drawing, but to date we have never had an issue with a PDF and re-scaling it once converted to ACAD. 

 

Thinking about it almost all PDF's need to be scaled properly once brought in because dim's are almost never picked up. Remember a PDF is a printed view at a scale, so you sometimes need to know paper size and scale but it's not the end of the world. 

Edited September 27, 2018 by Carrerahill

[Big Neil]

2 hours ago, Carrerahill said:

It depends how you are staging it I guess

 What do you mean with this??

 

2 hours ago, Carrerahill said:

The first drawings to a builder may be "Tender" or if you were sure that was what was to be build we would call them "Construction Drawings"

 Are these the stage immediately after construction drawings? Are you effectively saying that If you have been absolutely firm about what is to be built at the design stage, and that there is no change in principal from the planning drawings, that the tender/construction drawings are one and the same and are just an expansion of  the details on the planning drawings? 

[Carrerahill]

1 hour ago, Big Neil said:

 What do you mean with this??

 

 Are these the stage immediately after construction drawings? Are you effectively saying that If you have been absolutely firm about what is to be built at the design stage, and that there is no change in principal from the planning drawings, that the tender/construction drawings are one and the same and are just an expansion of  the details on the planning drawings? 

 

Right this is a bit of a ramble - every time I thought it was ready to post I decided I had forgotten a variation or difference I thought should explain in better detail - lets call this a concept stage reply! I think to do this properly it would need to be a fairly lengthy article - it's like trying to explain something quite detailed in 2 or 3 paragraphs - you just can't. However here is my attempt.

 

By staging I mean if you are following a true construction stage framework i.e. RIBA stages. Being a self build it could be done with no particular structured stages and it's all a bit off the cuff - which may be the result of ever changing budgets and evolving design or just wanting to be as fluid with the build as possible - or total disorganisation!

 

So to answer your question directly: Planning drawings are really quite lacking in detail but warrant drawings are usually good enough to build from. In a nutshell yes tender and construction drawings are more or less the same assuming everything is as you want it and you know details such as fittings and fixtures from a spec doc etc. 

 

So if you get drawings done to planning and warrant stage then no longer hire any more professionals for the design aspect then your final drawings really will be the warrant drawing and that is you. Technically you can just use your warrant drawings from here on - for a builder to price and indeed build. The details of the build can be built, hopefully, by a competent builder (or yourself) who knows what he is doing without any more drawings. A typical build with no difficult structural or glazing or cantilever details for example would not really need further detail. Your builder knows how to build the walls and roof and floors and he will price accordingly knowing what he is doing - he will adhere to spec within the warrant drawings i.e. roof to be C24 timbers on 600mm spacings etc. but that is just specification of materials and doesn't require a drawing.

 

However, if you retain pro's (or even do it yourself) to the end then you may then take drawings to tender stage which is just to as the name suggests get main and sub contractors to tender for - prices may come back high and you may have to VE (value engineer) it thus the drawings will change again and may keep changing until something that you are going to construct is drawn. Or the prices may come back as you expected and the tender drawings will really just become construction drawings. A tender package will usually include makes and models of fittings and fixtures or a well written spec of these items to keep the quality high.

 

At this point it depends on how the project is being run and the contract. You could build from tender drawings using the spec document, to be honest they are detailed enough for most builds and I would happily rename good final tender drawings "Construction" - remember drawings should always be viewed in conjunction with specification documents.