Help with kitchen renovation/ 1st house.

[zoothorn]

Onoff there are no draughts from the backdoor, nothing of -any- significance at all. Seriously, if you were here, you can just -feel- the cold eminates from the floor. You are no colder near the back door, no draughts are felt. I have one single pane window near it.. but even if I changed this to DG (which I'll have to do to scratch an itch, like this C'tex job) & sealed every conceivable mm gap around the back door.. it would make not a mite of difference. Not an iota. So even if I have the odd gap between the C'tex & the battens, or in the cnr where the PB's meet/ however well I could possible fill, it will be a moot job. I know this now. I didn't know before (so the combination of natural expectation + good folks' adamant views that it -could, & likely would- make a big difference [even with my scepticism as I just know this house] + if I hadn't have tried I'd always be asking the Q.. meant I had to try it.. &, alas, it hasn't worked. Its my fault/ it was my decision).

[newhome]

41 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

Haha no the fridge is the lower bit!

 

Seriously, outside is actually very slightly warmer than in here. Its the floor unquestionably now, as I thought but hoped it was only contributing to some, & the walls were part of the reason. Its absolutlely horrible, unbearable: I have a fan heater going over 1/2 dial, near constant on/ off, aimed at my feet only 4' away.. but my feet are still cold.

 

You can magine what I had to contend with during the cold march maybe now..  I had to keep active to live/ basically keep warm. This house is almost unliveable in due to this terrible cold issue, I've never known anywhere like it tbh.

 

Never seen a fridge freezer with the fridge on the bottom! 

 

Agree with @Onoff you must address the floor even if you lose a bit of height. Hard now you’ve got the units in tho so presumably will need to be up to the units? 

 

 

[zoothorn]

Onoff consider this, if you would. An eg of a different building. A local well-to-do xmas tree merchant/ king of log suppliers etc with a new build HUGE house.. & outbuildings, modern: one a single story, basically a long huge garage, single skin wood double doors one end. Cold winter evening, doors constantly wide open (he going in out for a good few hrs). We had a natter leaning on the doorway (about my cold house > what logs etc). Now.. my point: I could -feel- the warmth one step into this garage, a fab all-encompassing warmth the dog wasn't going -anywhere- but in its basket @ the side so cosy it was, & boy did I I envy the dog). The doors/ the wehole of one end of the room open, but still it felt warm just a step or 2 inside. Why? bc & so evidently bc, of the modern insulation in the floor, walls chiefly: such welsh guys will have it sorted so up to par it'll p*ss on most english comparisons/ boy do they know cold as we do here- & how to tackle it.

 

 

[Onoff]

7 minutes ago, newhome said:

 

Never seen a fridge freezer with the fridge on the bottom! 

 

Agree with @Onoff you must address the floor even if you lose a bit of height. Hard now you’ve got the units in tho so presumably will need to be up to the units? 

 

 

 

I was taking the pi$$.

 

Can't recall anyone promising a half arsed attempt with an inch of Celotex would make much difference. He was on about not wanting to lose room space anyway. He just doesn't get the whole a gap is a gap is a gap and air tightness thing. The tiniest gaps left can caused massive cold draughts. I said I put a vcl all round doing mine but that was deemed ott. 

 

Here's a suggestion, lay an offcut of Celotex on the floor and stand on it in bare feet. You should feel the warmth. Step onto the cold floor and back into the board. If it feels warmer I wonder if an inch of that with some click together flooring would help? Could miss it out at the door threshold?

 

Of course seal the room up too well and it'll start getting mould spots in the corner without  ventilation.

[zoothorn]

46 minutes ago, Onoff said:

 

How tall are you? Put a few inches of insulation on the floor and shorten the doors!

 

Its an idea.. but the doorway into the main shell of the cttg skims my head. Its conceivable tho, I could add 1" of C'tex + 1" of concrete ontop, leaving door as is, an arched step into kitchen at the door opening arc. But the logistics of even removing everything in here to do is HUGE, let alone the step 'down' into the UT room adjacent, unless I do that too.. but that then means also the Bathroom.. which is such a n'mare to consider (basically the idea can't include this the coldest room of all, which is kinda daft, but removing the basin/ bath/ WC.. is a no-no after only just renovating it all last year). Plus the time/ & leaving everything hanging on a thread until its done.. I'm just not sure I can face it. I just got somewhere today & finally can see the road ahead, thinking of stopping/ taking it all out again & replanning the whole floor.. christ on a bike.

 

is it conceivable I could do this at a later stage? knowing how I put it all in will surely facilitate removing xy & z.

[zoothorn]

16 minutes ago, Onoff said:

 

I was taking the pi$$.

 

Can't recall anyone promising a half arsed attempt with an inch of Celotex would make much difference.

 

Sorry onoff but again, there's no cause for rudeness please.

[Russell griffiths]

Have you anywhere you can put a wood burner

we currently live in a horrible house while we build the new one

when we moved in I built a 3m x3m boot room on the end and fitted a wood burner. 

good god it’s like a different house, we spend a lot of time with the back door open with the dog going in and out, the wood burner keeps everything cosy, drys the washing, keeps the dog happy, drys my work cloths and boots 

best money I have spent. 

If you have a draughty cold place fixing it room by room could be a long process 

my friend has an old oak frame cottage that you can actually see through gaps in the walls outside, he doesn’t care and just chucks another log on the fire. 

Edited September 6, 2018 by Russell griffiths
Spelling

[zoothorn]

Thanks Russell, I do have a 10kW logburner, which altho has to contend with an enormous ton of cold 'VS' it..  it can -just- about win the battle now Ive plugged many big gaps around main room edge (that went up to roof!!), remodelled the corner cupboard/ same issue, & put a thick curtain across the stairway.

 

One room ok tho. The others.. lord alive, you've no idea how cold. In winter I can have a heater flat out in here & it'll only heat the air above it & the mice in the loft in a small huddle above that.. & I can see my breath other side of the room. I have to run the gauntlet to uopstairs main bedroom & just dive under cover (immediately above stove too- no heat evidently gained up here). The cold zaps any heat introduced in such a WALLOP, cos its just so badly built. It was always going to be hugely challenging trying to address it by redoing xyz. But hey, it was one reason it was £125k.. woman before just couldn't deal with it ( snapped my arm off at my 1st lowest offer & scarpered).

Edited September 6, 2018 by zoothorn

[PeterW]

Just a thought ... any chance of getting a back boiler fitted to the stove ..? 

 

It would drive the heat around the building and start to dry it out or at least warm the fabric. 

 

What is on the downstairs floors ..? Carpet or something else ..??

[zoothorn]

@PeterW I don't think I have the room Peter. But I'll certainly look into it.. another Q for a (shorter!) thread. Carpet.. but won't change as i have the odd damp patch @ sides (normal old stone cttg- ok/ liveable for me) & under.. so old so-so carpet does its job tbh!

 

Peter, Im just going for the plumbing H/C pipes. I look at hep20 clips, & all only show eg's with the metal inserts twist & lock. So using 15mm copper pipe w'no inserts as you said ok to.. is it just a Q of push-fitting into, for eg, the hep20 elbow??

 

I can't see any twisting of the pipe onto the Hep20 unit as doing any 'lock' for added surity you see.

Edited September 6, 2018 by zoothorn

[zoothorn]

Found a clip with copper.. seems just a push fit/ ok I'm set.

 

thanks. zootH

 

[PeterW]

Hep2O has no clips or locks to do - it’s inherently safe as to release it you need a key that pushes the collar that is protected by the outer shroud. 

 

Push - twist - pull to see it is fitted properly. 

[zoothorn]

@PeterW I'm ready to turn on my ISO valves, just to check my plumbing. I don't have the "earth" wires (as I call them) attatched to the copper pipes yet.. is it ok to test the H/C watwer & tap etc withoput these for now? KIm way off even fixing in the sink > top yet so whole lot will need to come out again.

 

With all this Hep20 placcy stuff now immediately onto the iSO valves (bar the v.short copper pipes connecting them together) I don't have the area to connect these "earth" wires on.. so I'll have to think of how/ where. They ccan't go onwardssa of any placcy Hep20 stuff can they as that defeats the point of them being terminated onto copper. Very confusing these 2 wires.

[PeterW]

Wires are grounding wires and I’m not sure if you even need them on plastic - @ProDave what’s the rules on this ..? Can they go onto an isolated copper pipe that has Hep2O on either end ..?

[dpmiller]

composite sink, metal taps, I think I'd be wanting the tap grounded more than the plumbing?

[zoothorn]

No I assume not to actually put on plastic. But what Ive got is the ISO's > very very short length of copper > Hep20 elbow > copper pipe > hep20 elbow 'up' etc etc.

 

The elbow almost touches the brass nut of the ISO's.. so far back Ive set them (as the tap's connectors are naturally right  at the back of the cabinet). So I only have room to fit them actually onto the ISO's. Which I'm not sure I can even manage.

 

Where are these earths from??

[zoothorn]

3 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

composite sink, metal taps, I think I'd be wanting the tap grounded more than the plumbing?

 

 

This is surely one thing where the Hep20 stuff falls short of copper > copper. I didn't think at all of these 2 wires not being able to connect them.

 

But where do they eminate from? they can't be anyhting electrical, that would be nuts to have anything relating to the house electric circuit terminating near water area. And I have an earth junction, which looks suitably BIG & HD to think -this- is the electric grounding point.

 

Anyone know? i know onoff gave a link & explained in detail.. but I couldn't understand a single word of it.

[zoothorn]

@PeterW @newhome if anyone could just give a vis check/ & have any idea about these 2 mystery wires.. as you can see i just don't have the available area to link these wires to now Ive got Hep20 stuff on..

 

 

 

 

[PeterW]

They are part of the equipotential bonding - or making sure that if you stick fingers in a socket and grab a tap at the same time you don’t fry....

 

Lots of regs have changed - @JSHarris can you give a layman’s explanation as to what they are for ..?

[zoothorn]

So, without knowing what that means.. can I check the H/C water, & my tap.. just for now, with these 2 wires not connected??

 

I'm itching to just see if my tap works.. nearly 7 hours doing these 2 connections!

[newhome]

Yes! Just don’t stick your fingers in a socket at the same time ?

[Jeremy Harris]

24 minutes ago, PeterW said:

They are part of the equipotential bonding - or making sure that if you stick fingers in a socket and grab a tap at the same time you don’t fry....

 

Lots of regs have changed - @JSHarris can you give a layman’s explanation as to what they are for ..?

 

Depends on the version of the regs, but going back to the old way of looking at things, the idea was to bond any bit of metal that could be touched (including tabs, baths, metal sinks etc) together, and originally back to the metal incoming water pipe, which may well have been used as the protective earth for the whole house.  Frankly this wasn't a great idea, IMHO, but at the time, when houses only had fuses for protection, and safety was primarily achieved by trying to place an earthed barrier between any potentially live part and the person using the appliance, it was pretty much the best we could do.

 

We now have much better protective devices, residual current circuit breakers, or RCDs, that can sense a very small imbalance in the current flowing between line and neutral when there is a fault and turn off the supply very quickly, so significantly reducing the chance of a fatal electric shock.

 

If the house is wired to an older version of the regulations then it still requires equipotential bonding - those wires connecting the pipes together - but it's a bit pointless if there are plastic push fit fittings that break the bonding.  Not knowing the system you have, I can't say what to do exactly.  You may need to bond all the exposed copper pipes together with earth wires and clamps to be strictly within the version of the regs that applied when your electrical installation was fitted, you may not, depends on whether your electrical installation has been updated to include one or more RCDs or not. 

 

A new electrical installation doesn't generally require either earth bonding or equipotential bonding now, both because the RCD(s) provide a significantly greater level of protection and because modern plumbing often includes plastic pipe and fittings, but that may well not be the case with an older system.  Given that you have a non-conductive sink, then I'd be inclined to just bond the hot and cold incoming copper pipes together and run a bonding wire to the tap, to be on the safe side, and not worry about all the individual lengths of copper pipe that are insulated from each other by the push fit fittings and are tucked away in the cupboard, as they don't present a significant risk at all.

 

 

[zoothorn]

That's a terrific answer JSH, appreciated. I understand almost all of it. Now, I think have a modern consumer unit (incongruous to the rest of the appaling additions to the old 1830 stone shell).. with RCD protection. A Crabtree unit with any number of wee black flip down fuse/ switches, & a big Master double red switch RHS.

 

Is this an RCD protected system you refer to-? I'm 95% certain it is, as I had exactly same in a (modern, well built Extension) prior properrty which had a hair-trigger trip thing which seemed to work very well. And I just flipped back the one that occasionally went pop.

 

What does RCD stand for?

[zoothorn]

[Onoff]

2 hours ago, zoothorn said:

That's a terrific answer JSH, appreciated. I understand almost all of it. Now, I think have a modern consumer unit (incongruous to the rest of the appaling additions to the old 1830 stone shell).. with RCD protection. A Crabtree unit with any number of wee black flip down fuse/ switches, & a big Master double red switch RHS.

 

Is this an RCD protected system you refer to-? I'm 95% certain it is, as I had exactly same in a (modern, well built Extension) prior properrty which had a hair-trigger trip thing which seemed to work very well. And I just flipped back the one that occasionally went pop.

 

What does RCD stand for?

 

Post a picture of your consumer unit and somebody will give you a detailed what's what explanation of the various components.

 

RCD stands for residual current device. If there is a current leakage to earth on a piece of equipment or circuit the idea is the power gets cut. 

 

Say your washing machine is happily working away. You've Live and Neutral to the motor and the current flowing is deemed "in balance". The current is going nowhere other than where it should. Then, for whatever reason a pipe splits inside and water is now spraying around the inside of the machine. The case of the machine is metal. If that water comes into contact with a live internal part and the metal case it provides a low resistance path for the current to track down. The risk is you touch something metal that is now live. The rcd detects this leakage and trips before it reaches 30mA.

 

 

Edited September 6, 2018 by Onoff