IVT Ecolane ASHP - any owners out there?

[Triassic]

Just out of interest, what affect does the ending of the FiT have on the micro generation scheme and ASHP installations?

Edited August 31, 2018 by Triassic

[newhome]

1 hour ago, Triassic said:

Just out of interest, what affect does the ending of the FiT have on the micro generation scheme and ASHP installations?

 

No changes to the RHI scheme although the payments change regularly anyway. The problem with an MCS ASHP is a. getting someone to want to fit one and b. getting a cost effective quote. My only quote was 14.5k for an 11.2kw monobloc. 

[Matjaz]

On 12/05/2018 at 16:07, readiescards said:

Came with these bits only.

 

How have you secured/ mounted it?

This "controller" version is very dangerous for heat pump. It works on 100% or on 0% That Siemens thermostat trigger off/on the heatpump when desired temperature is reached. So basically it is ON/OFF heat pump, controllers for IVT AX-09 can be found on popular sites...  

[ProDave]

Are you saying this hat pump does not regulate the flow temperatures?

 

My LG heat pump, and I am sure most others, allows you to set the water flow temperature independantly in heating mode and hot water mode, and it modulates the compressor speed to maintain that water flow temperature.

 

I find it hard to believe this one does not do the same.

[Matjaz]

31 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Are you saying this hat pump does not regulate the flow temperatures?

 

My LG heat pump, and I am sure most others, allows you to set the water flow temperature independantly in heating mode and hot water mode, and it modulates the compressor speed to maintain that water flow temperature.

 

I find it hard to believe this one does not do the same.

with this "controller above" definitely no

as I said it works on 100% power of compressor and has no controll for flow temperature and so on...   But as I mentioned before it is possible to find controller for AX-09 IVT with functions  on popular sites..

[Jeremy Harris]

39 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Are you saying this hat pump does not regulate the flow temperatures?

 

My LG heat pump, and I am sure most others, allows you to set the water flow temperature independantly in heating mode and hot water mode, and it modulates the compressor speed to maintain that water flow temperature.

 

I find it hard to believe this one does not do the same.

 

 

From what I've seen, it does regulate the temperature using the thermostat, but just runs it as if it was a non-modulating heat pump, like many of the earlier models.  There are tens of thousands of heat pumps in service that only allow on/off operation, including all of the non-inverter controlled ones.  There's no risk in doing this, it's just not the most efficient way to operate them, that's all.  Efficiency can be improved a fair bit by modulating the heat pump output to match the demand at any time, which is what most inverter controlled heat pumps do.

 

In this case the supplier of these heat pumps is only supplying the basic heat pump, not the rather expensive proportional controller.  The information @PeterW has obtained shows that there is a three connection binary power control system, that allows the heat pump to be modulated from off to 100% in stages: 0%, 30%, 42%, 53%, 65%, 77%, 88%, 100%.

 

Looks pretty easy to make a controller up to do this, TBH, and not expensive either.

[Matjaz]

if you use steps from 1-7 you will have significally lower energy consumption and smaller number of on/off of compressor..  What this means for years of use we all know.. [price for product removed, - please read the forum terms and conditions: https://forum.buildhub.org.uk/terms/ ]

[ProDave]

23 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

 

 

From what I've seen, it does regulate the temperature using the thermostat, but just runs it as if it was a non-modulating heat pump, like many of the earlier models.  There are tens of thousands of heat pumps in service that only allow on/off operation, including all of the non-inverter controlled ones.  There's no risk in doing this, it's just not the most efficient way to operate them, that's all.  Efficiency can be improved a fair bit by modulating the heat pump output to match the demand at any time, which is what most inverter controlled heat pumps do.

 

In this case the supplier of these heat pumps is only supplying the basic heat pump, not the rather expensive proportional controller.  The information @PeterW has obtained shows that there is a three connection binary power control system, that allows the heat pump to be modulated from off to 100% in stages: 0%, 30%, 42%, 53%, 65%, 77%, 88%, 100%.

 

Looks pretty easy to make a controller up to do this, TBH, and not expensive either.

But that would still be an open loop control of the power level then, unless your home made controller senses the flow temperature itself and uses that to "close the loop" and adjust the power level to suit demand.

 

A Raspbery Pi or an Arduino controller could do that quite easily.

[Matjaz]

You are correct. Heat pump changes the steps according to flow temperature sensor... You set lets say 45 degrees and it will always keep it , no matter of other conditions..  triggers OFF by room thermostat

[PeterW]

14 minutes ago, Matjaz said:

if you use steps from 1-7 you will have significally lower energy consumption and smaller number of on/off of compressor..  What this means for years of use we all know.. 160GBP for modulating controller is not so much

 

@Matjaz looking at your link that is an Arduino running a 20x4 display, 4 buttons and 3 thermistors. Adding a cheap PSU I would expect there is no more than £25 of parts in total in a unit that is priced at £350. To make a closed loop unit to only do the basics is a similar price. 

 

Your comment that using the 1-7 steps will result in significantly lower energy consumption is completely untrue ! To heat water to a temperature requires exactly the same amount of power at 50% as 100% as it just runs for twice as long ....

 

@ProDave that is pretty much what I’ve done this morning - Pair of DS18S20 sensors on flow and return, a quick ramp up / down algorithm and then vary the power input as the DeltaT between flow and return reduces. 

[Jeremy Harris]

18 minutes ago, ProDave said:

But that would still be an open loop control of the power level then, unless your home made controller senses the flow temperature itself and uses that to "close the loop" and adjust the power level to suit demand.

 

A Raspbery Pi or an Arduino controller could do that quite easily.

 

 

Doesn't even need anything that complex.  I could knock up a bit of code to provide proportional control with a PIC costing a pound or so in less than an hour.  Doesn't even need full blown PID control, just PI would be fine as the response time of the ASHP is going to be pretty long.  I've probably already got code that would do it from the "sensitive thermostat" project I was playing around with when looking to use slab temperature control of our UFH.  Would be dead easy to modify that to use a pipe sensor and drive the three binary lines for the heat pump proportional control.

 

Making a controller would be pretty cheap, even allowing for the case, power supply etc.  Of course it would be illegal to sell it in the EU, as it wouldn't be approved against the LV Directive or EMC Directive, so could not be authorised by an EU Notified Body to carry the CE mark.  OK as a DIY project, but unlawful to sell - even advertising it for sale within the EU could get the seller into trouble.

[Matjaz]

22 minutes ago, PeterW said:

 

@Matjaz looking at your link that is an Arduino running a 20x4 display, 4 buttons and 3 thermistors. Adding a cheap PSU I would expect there is no more than £25 of parts in total in a unit that is priced at £350. To make a closed loop unit to only do the basics is a similar price. 

 

Your comment that using the 1-7 steps will result in significantly lower energy consumption is completely untrue ! To heat water to a temperature requires exactly the same amount of power at 50% as 100% as it just runs for twice as long ....  

 

heat pump flows so much energy in the system, as much as it needed at the moment like INVERTER

 

If you would read the pdf manual you would understand, in he beggining we thought same as you..

 

[PeterW]

4 minutes ago, Matjaz said:

If you would read the pdf manual you would understand, in he beggining we thought same as you..

 

Happy for you to post the pdf manual here as it will be interesting to see how you have interpreted what is a basic PID algorithm into the binary steps unless you have also implemented variable speed control into the pump also. 

[Jeremy Harris]

@Matjaz, I'd be very interested to see your LV Directive and EMC Directive approvals, too, as I used to be a UK Head of Type Approval and an EU Notified Body, accredited to allow the use of the CE mark, some years ago.  Selling a product in the EU that does not carry the appropriate approvals is a serious matter.

[Matjaz]

Good luck to all selfbuilders, hope you will make even better controller... for those who want  help Im available always by personal message.

[PeterW]

By way of update. 

 

The controller power works in reverse to what is expected :

 

A5 - B1 +24v

A1-A3 0v

B2-B3 0v

 

 

 

[bissoejosh]

Just beginning my heat pump search and think I have seen the pumps discussed in this thread or what look very similar on eBay:

 

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/IVT-9kW-Air-Source-Heat-Pump-Surplus-Stock-Clearance-FREE-UK-DELIVERY/153137536987?hash=item23a7b55fdb:g:88AAAOSwICpaThkM

 

Truth be told I'm not quite ready for one yet but I thought it wise to keep an eye on eBay to get a feel for prices. I was fully expecting to buy at auction but these look a decent price for something with a warranty of sorts so it might be worth making the purchase a little ahead of schedule.

 

How are people getting on with them and how many have managed to set them up for DHW + UFH as discussed? 

 

Thanks

 

 

[joe90]

I bought mine fir about the same money, it’s a punt but such a saving. I don’t know the make tho?

[ProDave]

Don't buy too much in advance.

 

It was 11 months between my buying my ASHP (a different make to this thread) and me trying it in anger, only to find it did not work.

 

I had a battle to get it resolved. That may have been an even harder battle that I may not have won if it had been over a year.

[newhome]

40 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Don't buy too much in advance.

 

I think that’s good advice. I would suggest that you don’t buy if you are not going to use it before the eBay dispute window closes. @ProDave had the good fortune to have bought his from a company that was part of a much larger operation. If you buy from a smaller seller you may find that they’ve packed up and disappeared. 

 

 

[Gav_P]

I bought my ASHP for £250, it was new but obsolete.... it took me 3 years to fit it... so when it came around to the time to switch it on I was very nervous that it may not work. It turned out fine and worked without any issue (until I did something stupid to break it anyway). 

 

I would follow the advice of waiting until you are ready for it for several reasons over and above the obvious of returns / warrantees etc.

- there are always bargains to be had on eBay, so no rush now.

- It’s more likely to get damaged or nicked.

- but the longer you wait the more the prices come down on better spec equipment, so the longer you wait the better the ASHP you are likely to get for the same money. 

 

The other thing to remember is all the installation equipment needed. Flexi pipes, control unit, wall brackets or pad and feet, etc

[bissoejosh]

Sounds like good advice, I'll hold off for the time being but keep an eye on what's out there.

 

@Gav_P £250 sounds like a bargain!

 

 

 

 

[readiescards]

Can the Sunamp A1-A2 connectors drive this ASHP directly?  i.e. in my setup I just need the ASHP to run to charge the Sunamp whenever the Sunamp needs charging nothing else to do.

[Nickfromwales]

Nope, as the PCM34 is a pre heat for DHW ( feeding into the second PCM 58 eHw SA unit ) as well as the ASHP buffer, it must stay heated during any occupied let. 

The ASHP keeps the PCM 34 heated, as per the DHW timeclock setting, and it toggles in / our as energy is required. It gives a jump start to the Ufh when it calls for heat as a buffer and will ( eventually ) accept pv. 

The 34 will get heated and then stop calling for heat until a time comes that energy has been consumed from it, eg in the evenings when baths and showers / dish wash etc are all being used, where it will then ask to be replenished, but otherwise it will just sit in the ‘charged’ state.

The PCM 34 gets heated as per W plan where DHW ( the PCM 34 ) is given priority over space heating. All this allows the ASHP to reside at one low mono temp for max cop and preheating the water going into the PCM 58 nearly doubles it’s DHW capacity. As a biproduct of running space heating, the PCM 34 will also be heated as it’s a buffer, a bit like the old systems where you always had DHW and then DHW & CH but no option for CH only. 

Clear as mud ?

[testom]

Good Morning All,

I am new to this forum and English is not my first language, so please be delicate...

 

I decided to buy one of this IVT ASHP (PUHZ-W90) - awaiting delivery.

Of course I will get it with same controller as you guys shown previously.

In the meantime I went through all useful info you guys wrote in terms of controlling  this unit.

 

Digging over internet I found that initial controller for PUHZ-W90VHA must have been PAC-IF010 or PAC-IF11 (not sure about this second model). 

Interesting info which I found reading manual for this controllers is, that there is and option to set it (leaving A1, A2, A3 inputs open) to run external unit in AUTO mode. 

I was not sure what AUTO mode is, but finally found leaflet where AUTO mode is explained as mode where external unit (PUHZ-W90 it self) reads the temp of the air at the inlet to the unit, and sets the speed of the compressor accordingly.  

I`m think this could be more effective way of using this ASHP, having such mode active.

In my understanding this have something to do with A4 terminal. 

Please correct me if I am wrong. 

Attached manual. Please ref to page 18.

 

 

Mitsubishi_Electric_Air_to_Water_(ATW)_Heat_pump_Eng.pdf