Smug to Mug

[Hecateh]

A bit more detail

 

Windows	£8,134.00		4 windows 1200 x 1200, 3 @ 630 x 1200. 2 doors uPVC, 1 slider 2.7 x 2100 and french door with side panel 1700 x 2100.  This quote was for composite doors and bifold patio doors. I've got a quote for £4200
Plastering	£4,000.00		studding, plaster board and plastering to internal perimeter walls
Electrics	£2,100.00		All - very detailed quote down to number of  sockets, etc
UFH	£7,630.00		wet to entry and lower ground foor, electric to upper floor, including self leveling screeding to lower ground and self levelling compound to entry and upper
Studwork frames	£3,112.00		all internal walls, as shown on plans, and suspended ceiling to entry level
Doors, architraves, skirting	£5,742.00		8 internal doors. Including furniture I think he allowed £100 per door that I was going to try and reduce. Skirting similar to shown on plans but entry level bathroom changed size
framework for soffit, fascias, soffits, downpipes	£1,860.00		established that this is way over the top. Materials come to £560.  He has included the tile trim as well I think and that should be part of roof. Talking to him about that tomorrow
Retaining wall detail, flagged steps	£3,765.00		Retaining wall is about a metre and needs a return along the hedge as well.  Wondering if that could be reduced by putting a slope in.
Driveway, including turning point, in  bound gravel	£10,000.00		The drive comes in at about 80 sq metre and has to be a solid permeable finish.  Did wonder about leaving it as sub base initially. Alternatively just main drive in solid with loose to ends.  Just not allowed it near road

..

[Declan52]

You will need him to dig down further and explain the ufh costs better. He knows money is tight so just say you are looking to count the penny's. Think you need a to go over everything with the finest tooth comb in the world.

8 doors at £100 and £100( guess) to hang is only £1600. You can get doors in b&q for Less than £30. I know there not great but they open and close and would save you money which you need to put towards other stuff. 

You have roughly less than 100m of skirting and 80m of architrave and he has this priced up for the rest just over £4k. Price up 100mm prefinished MDF for the whole house. It's between £2-£3 a metre. You can put a few coats of paint on it before it gets put on then only needs 1 when on the wall.

I take it the driveway being solid is part of your planning conditions and without it being done you can't get the house passed.

[Hecateh]

3 minutes ago, Declan52 said:

You will need him to dig down further and explain the ufh costs better. He knows money is tight so just say you are looking to count the penny's. Think you need a to go over everything with the finest tooth comb in the world.

8 doors at £100 and £100( guess) to hang is only £1600. You can get doors in b&q for Less than £30. I know there not great but they open and close and would save you money which you need to put towards other stuff. 

You have roughly less than 100m of skirting and 80m of architrave and he has this priced up for the rest just over £4k. Price up 100mm prefinished MDF for the whole house. It's between £2-£3 a metre. You can put a few coats of paint on it before it gets put on then only needs 1 when on the wall.

I take it the driveway being solid is part of your planning conditions and without it being done you can't get the house passed.

 

I'm not intending giving him any more of the work once the roof is on.  I am looking to get quotes from others.  I am as sure as I can be he has weighted these - As has been said earlier. I'm paying/have paid for his learning curve.  He's still trying to make money out of me despite having dropped me in the doodah.   Even if I end up paying the same as he has quoted for some things I would rather give the work to someone else.  

 

Yes - the driveway is part of the planning.  I've just been down to physically measure and see if and how it can be designed to be useful with the least possible area.  Got some interesting pics too

 

[Construction Channel]

When you say the driveway is subject to planning. Is that the entire thing or just the bit by the road? You see a fair few places that have about 2m of block paving by the entrance then gravel after that. Could this be an option?

[Hecateh]

Looks like all of it

 

The parking/manoeuvring facilities, indicated on the submitted plan, shall be surfaced in a solid bound material (i.e. not loose chippings) and made available for the manoeuvring and parking of motor vehicles prior to the development being brought into use, and shall be retained for that sole purpose at all times.

Reason: To ensure that satisfactory off-street parking/manoeuvring areas are provided, in the interests of highway safety and the free flow of traffic and in accordance with Core Strategy Policy CSP 26, New Development and Highway Improvement.

[Gone West]

We specified resin bound for our driveway to meet planning conditions. We've had the area next to the road done in resin bound but further back from the road I'll do resin bonded because it's much cheaper and I can do it myself. It also looks the same.

[Hecateh]

Is this acceptable.  The stuff that goes on top to bridge the gap was in place but not screwed in.  so I pulled it out and had a look.  Every window is like this, with bits missing

 

 

 

[Hecateh]

7 minutes ago, PeterStarck said:

We specified resin bound for our driveway to meet planning conditions. We've had the area next to the road done in resin bound but further back from the road I'll do resin bonded because it's much cheaper and I can do it myself. It also looks the same.

Is it hard wearing enough for a turning point.  Won't be heavily used though.

What did you use as a base?  

And how much was it per sqm, if you don't mind sharing that is.

 

Edited April 15, 2018 by Hecateh

[dpmiller]

If a solid bound surface is required you could surely get away with just the coarse tarmac underlayer for the resin stuff?

[Construction Channel]

1 minute ago, Hecateh said:

Is this acceptable?

 

Every window is like this with gaps.  The bridging material has been pushed into place, not yet fastened in, I noticed earlier that there were gaps so I pulled some of the bridge (don't know what it is called) and this is how it is on every window

 

 

The bridging bit is called the cavity closure just so you know. And AFAIC no that’s not acceptable BUT you will find that is general practice for brick layers. Insulation is just a hinderance to them. 

 

if they did it properly brick and block could be a good way to build, unfortunately most of the time they don’t. 

 

All hail the chippies  

[Hecateh]

4 minutes ago, Construction Channel said:

 

The bridging bit is called the cavity closure just so you know. And AFAIC no that’s not acceptable BUT you will find that is general practice for brick layers. Insulation is just a hinderance to them. 

 

if they did it properly brick and block could be a good way to build, unfortunately most of the time they don’t. 

 

All hail the chippies  

Is it something that building control would be interested in

 

I think I need to call him anyway to let him know that I am taking over project management

 

 

 

[SteamyTea]

Have you got access to a copy of SPONS, ask around and I am sure others have.  Will give you an idea of what to expect and if builders see you have a copy, they should know to be wary.

[Hecateh]

 

1 minute ago, SteamyTea said:

Have you got access to a copy of SPONS, ask around and I am sure others have.  Will give you an idea of what to expect and if builders see you have a copy, they should know to be wary.

No, unfortunately, Until now I was happy to just let him get on with it.  He's very particular with anything that can be seen but not fussy if it's hidden it seems

[Construction Channel]

12 minutes ago, Hecateh said:

Is it something that building control would be interested in

 

I think I need to call him anyway to let him know that I am taking over project management

 

 

 

 

Yes, but you have got to be weary here about being a “grass” which won’t help preceding. 

 

Tell bb you noticed it was not very well filled on one so you investigated the others. Then let him fill them properly. Telling the BCO first will not help bring another prices down. 

[Ferdinand]

25 minutes ago, Hecateh said:

Is it something that building control would be interested in

 

I think I need to call him anyway to let him know that I am taking over project management

 

 

 

 

This is one for the new PM to demonstrate authority in a manner which will be gentle but firm and resolute !!! 

 

Edited April 15, 2018 by Ferdinand

[Hecateh]

 

24 minutes ago, Construction Channel said:

 

Yes, but you have got to be weary here about being a “grass” which won’t help preceding. 

 

Tell bb you noticed it was not very well filled on one so you investigated the others. Then let him fill them properly. Telling the BCO first will not help bring another prices down. 

Nope - telling building control will be a last resort.  Just wanted to know before I bring it up.

[PeterW]

Studwork is way over if it’s timber, as is the plastering. Just paid £6k for 470sqm of board and skim walls and sloping ceilings with another 65sqm or flat ceilings on a 168sqm house so that price is well over. 

 

Get the sparky direct. 

 

Oh, and get those cavities refilled, 10 minute job to do it properly !

[Declan52]

1 hour ago, Hecateh said:

Is this acceptable.  The stuff that goes on top to bridge the gap was in place but not screwed in.  so I pulled it out and had a look.  Every window is like this, with bits missing

 

 

 

Nope that's not gd one bit. The brickie is meant to use his trowel to scoop up the motar that gets squeezed out when you lay the bricks and blocks and use this over and over again. Them cavities are full of motar droppings as well. 

Then the massive gaps between different layers of insulation are ok if you want cold spots all over your wall. You may get him to remove the rest of the closers and sort that mess out before your Windows go in.

[Oz07]

Am I right in that OP gave builder a previous quote to price against and current builder only quoted against this as instructed. Builders are not qs'. He likely didn't employ one to help him quote because he was only asked to quote specifically against what was supplied. If this is the jist of things then I think a wake up call is needed. The contractor is losing all the cream where he was potentially going to make his money because op failed to do due diligence and get a proper spec. 1500 per m2 for a fully managed project isn't expensive. Sorry for the rant, might be wrong with above assumptions, just wanted to give balance. As to way forward like you say, sale of existing asap and rent. Will feel better with recharged warchest 

[Hecateh]

23 minutes ago, Oz07 said:

Am I right in that OP gave builder a previous quote to price against and current builder only quoted against this as instructed. Builders are not qs'. He likely didn't employ one to help him quote because he was only asked to quote specifically against what was supplied. If this is the jist of things then I think a wake up call is needed. The contractor is losing all the cream where he was potentially going to make his money because op failed to do due diligence and get a proper spec. 1500 per m2 for a fully managed project isn't expensive. Sorry for the rant, might be wrong with above assumptions, just wanted to give balance. As to way forward like you say, sale of existing asap and rent. Will feel better with recharged warchest 

Totally understand this.  Fully his argument too and I do have sympathy with it.  

Prior to me giving him the quote, he had estimated an approx price of £75k to £85k.  He then quoted 89k.  As someone for whom this is a one and only, that seemed to have taken into account the only things not mentioned in his original estimate (electrics and fitting of customer supplied bathrooms and kitchen)

 

We both - the builder and I, thought it was a quote to build a house.  At the time the building regs spec came in we should have sat down, gone through it and agreed what wasn't on the quote and what was needed to get what we both wanted. 

 

Unfortunately. at this time. the SE specified foundations solid enough for a 4 storey hotel.  This distracted us all from the rest of the quote.  My son is an architect technician and spoke with the SE who said that he had taken a worse case scenario because he did not know the builder except that he was young and inexperienced in full builds (fair amount of experience in extensions however).  At this time the builder was regularly reassuring me that he knew what he was doing and that I didn't have to worry about anything, it was all under control.  Legally, I fully accept responsibility.  

 

What I am objecting to is that  - many things were discussed in the early stages of the build.  We discussed how the floors were to be, where the walls were to be, the tanking of the lower ground, the staircase (Specifically, 'I can get it cheaper but that's not how I work'), The downstairs loo.  My son helped him work out the best way of meeting the SE requirements and at a later stage, but luckily not too late, that the underfloor space in the entry level was not ventilated, and he was able to add some telescopic vents (not as many as specified n the plans but probably enough).  Variations were added, 13k for extra foundations, About 1k for some ground works and hardstanding, and 3k for a pumped sewer system as we were unable to connect downstream.  Nothing was mentioned about any other additional costs.

Fast forward through all the bad weather. I became increasingly worried about the amount of work left to do against the rapidly decreasing budget.  He, I believe, should have been aware of this but until I drew his attention, was not.  After drawing his attention to it, he looked through everything and decided that he has done a lot of work that wasn't in the quote, which he wanted to charge me for (despite there being a clause that, except in an emergency prices should be agree in writing for any additional work - or at least agreed verbally and confirmed in writing) and there was a lot of work to do that wasn't quoted for.  45k worth.  

 

All along, he knew my budget, and that I needed a house at or close to at least, the amount he had quoted.  

 

When I complained about the lads spending an hour and half on 'break' in the morning, he said that was his business and nothing to do with me(worked out that the from 9.30 to 10 they couldn't work because of the rain but their break didn't start until 10.) I am not 'allowed' to talk to the lads except in general pleasantries and certainly not allowed to complain when 8 times out of 10 (for one particular guy) I look out the window and see him on his phone or just stood chatting.  When the lads spent 3 hours in the morning sat in their van with the engine running cos it was raining and then going home half an hour before the sun comes out. Despite the fact that the weather was doing exactly as predicted; on at least 2 occasions. 

 

Even then I still wanted to work with him, I was prepared to pay for what hadn't been quoted for BUT his prices then come in at way above what they should be.  Wanting to charge me 8.5k for glazing (I got a quote for £4.2), 1.8k for rainwater goods when materials are around £600 and scaffolding is already there etc etc. It appears he is loading prices to cover expenses in the past.  Bearing in mind his initial estimation, which was for 75 - 85k, I think a final price of 150k is taking advantage.  This is his business, he assured me he is professional and fair.  This is a one off for me.  I put my trust in him. Damn right I feel shafted

 

I was warned not to go with him because of his inexperience.  He assured me he knew what he was doing.  His inexperience has cost me.  1500 per sqm is fine if agreed up front.  It isn't fair to complete most of the shell without any hint that the price quoted is going up by another 50% of the the first estimate (that's excluding the extra for foundations and sewage pump)

[Nickfromwales]

9 hours ago, Hecateh said:

UFH £7,630.00   wet to entry and lower ground foor, electric to upper floor, including self leveling screeding to lower ground and self levelling compound to entry and upper

Are you saying he's fitting electric UFH on the entire 1st floor, and setting it into SL compound? There are foil mats that go down without SLC to do this, thus saving several hundreds of pounds. Can you get as much detail on that environment of works as you can plz? 

Cost of UFH components and the supplier?

Cost of electric UFH and the supplier? ( argue in both cases that you want good warranties etc if you need a cloak to go with the dagger )

Does that include manifold/s?

Does that include manifold pump/s and blender set/s?

Whose designed the UFH layout? eg number of loops per zone and the pipe spacings. YOU MUST KNOW THIS BEFORE THE SCREED GETS ANYWHERE NEAR THE HOUSE!! It cannot be rectified afterwards. 

UFH controllers and room thermostats? Does he think the boiler fitter will be "sorting all that out"? eg then you get another bill for change of £1k for the controls. 

 

You say the boiler will be supplied. Price and EXACTLY what boiler? If its a combi then you'll need a buffer tank to drive the UFH, so factor that into the airing cupboard so you know up front that you'll lose a bit of space in there but the heat won't go to waste, but most importantly that you get quotes from plumbers to do the correct job rather than 5-pipe jockeys who will bolt the boiler to the wall and scarper.

 

What is the depth of the ground floor screed, and what is the M2 so I can get you a price to compare?

 

 

 

 

[Ferdinand]

Looking at those numbers, I would say that some of them should be reducible by perhaps a quarter to a third .. based on the areas Inknow about, but God and the Devil are both in the Detail here.

 

On the doors etc, we have for £5742:

 

17 hours ago, Hecateh said:

  8 internal doors. Including furniture I think he allowed £100 per door that I was going to try and reduce. Skirting similar to shown on plans but entry level bathroom changed size

 

And Declan said

 

17 hours ago, Declan52 said:

8 doors at £100 and £100( guess) to hang is only £1600. You can get doors in b&q for Less than £30. I know there not great but they open and close and would save you money which you need to put towards other stuff. 

You have roughly less than 100m of skirting and 80m of architrave and he has this priced up for the rest just over £4k. Price up 100mm prefinished MDF for the whole house. It's between £2-£3 a metre. You can put a few coats of paint on it before it gets put on then only needs 1 when on the wall.

 

My recent experience, on the LBB for 6 doors and skirting throughout, came to around £90 per door for getting the heavy Oak Veneer Mexicano doors, ball bearing hinges, wing handles and tube latches bought and delivered per door. All good quality. The doors were about £70 of that, but the deal was very good and might be a bit more next time. Others are reporting numbers around £100 for similar oak veneer doors and furniture in a recent thread so that should be doable in the £100 ballpark. If you are using white egg crate doors or similar then you should be under half that. If you go for cheap doors consider better door furniture that you can reuse with better doors later.

 

Fitting for me was about £80-100 per door including quite a bit of trimming to match existing frames. Note that this only included forming one doorframe.

 

I paid £1.60 inc VAT per metre for 94mm bullnose pre-primered skirting. Buying that is a minor cost. Painting and trimming and attaching skirting will be more significant (probably glue it on). Obvs buy it in lengths and a selection  that are slightly more than your varied room dimensions eg 4.2m for me -> no joins but go 2 feet too long for joins and corners rather than risk 1 foot too short. Get it all at once and get the calculations right or you may get another delivery fee for the small second order which is under the free delivery threshold. This latter is meat and drink; same principles apply everywhere.

 

4-5m skirtings in small hatchbacks can be done, but needs care !

 

Door linings, once the openings are formed, could be £30 depending on circs. I paid £25 for a white MDF 108mm version, but my supplier now advertises these at £54 - so it must have been a sale or to clinch the order.

 

On that basis I would punt that you should look for your doors, skirtings and architraves to be somewhere under 4K, perhaps nearer 3.5k. procured and fitted. Paint the skirtings and architraves before fitting, and spray your walls first if they are being sprayed.

 

F

Edited April 16, 2018 by Ferdinand

[AliG]

Biggest saving you can make is changing the kind of driveway. Resin bound is pretty much the most expensive driveway that you can build. £120ish a square metres as quoted seems about right as the costs would drop for a larger area.

 

There are other kinds of permeable driveway. You can get permeable blocks or permeable tarmac. That would roughly halve the cost.

 

I know that a lot of people here are looking at the costs and saying they seem high but they seem about what I would expect for a main contractor. They don't tend to price things like skirtings by saying I buy this for £x a metre and then it will take a guy 1 day to fit at £150 a day. Instead they will price it at £10 a metre fitted. They don't want to spend time looking for the cheapest sources on the internet etc. Thus you can often do this kind of thing cheaper, but it involves a lot of work.

 

Unfortunately I think as you go along you might find further small things still not costed, e.g. does the window quote include window sills. Often these smalls things just get forgotten about until you realise that they are needed.

 

From a quick look at the plans, you could probably lose the wall and door that create the vestibule as it is not necessary. You could also have the dressing room open to the bedroom which would save a door, between them that might save £1000.

 

I guess it might be too late to change the plumbing, but if you swapped the en suite and the dressing room around, the en suite would have a window to the front and the dressing room doesn't have to have a window so you could do away with the skylight currently in the en suite. (I'd also personally make the ensuite wider and the dressing room narrower either way)

 

Is decorating actually included in the various prices, e.g for the skirting and architraves? Painting is perhaps a job you cold do yourself for a decent saving.

 

 

Edited April 16, 2018 by AliG

[Gone West]

15 hours ago, Hecateh said:

Is it hard wearing enough for a turning point.  Won't be heavily used though.

What did you use as a base?  

And how much was it per sqm, if you don't mind sharing that is.

 

The resin bound is easily good enough for a turning area. We had 200mm compacted type 1 then 70mm asphalt then 18mm resin bound. We don't think we have a separate cost for the resin bound because it was included with having kerbs and edging laid. We haven't laid the resin bonded yet but it will have a similar base and would be good enough for a turning area although it wouldn't be porous. There is a cheaper bitumen bonded surface but the gravel tends to pull away from the surface especially on a turning area

[StructuralEngineer]

Does the drive need to be "permeable" as you stated? If laid to a slight fall you could go with tarmac or patterned concrete, and introduce ACO drains where necessary. Permeable drives tend to block up anyway.