Hecateh Posted April 12, 2018 Author Share Posted April 12, 2018 5 minutes ago, PeterW said: Is that fitted inc Vat..? Know the sizes..? Fitted - ex VAT - have emailed him about VAT. I suspect its something they are not aware of but, as they manufacture their own windows, they will be VAT registered so shouldn't be a huge problem to get that sorted. Yes, he knows the sizes AND as the same guy came out about 5 years ago to replace some blown units in my current property, they have been around a while Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ultramods Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 (edited) I think you are being far too lenient with the builder. Ok, he may be young and inexperienced but he has decided to start a business and if he has underestimated that is for him to absorb and to learn from - not you. Having said that, I think you have been naive in not having a full breakdown of what was included in the fixed price that he was offering. However I would have expected him to be notifying you of any variances before carrying out the work. 45k on a 96m2 house seams like a massive oversight (that would be almost 50% overspend on my build) and i think you need to be firmer with the builder. Maybe even seek legal advice. Or if you are happy posting here, post the details of what was/wasn't/included in the fixed price contract. when PeterW was asking you about the window sizes I think he was wanting to know the total area of windows/doors for your houses as we could then tell you an estimate of what you should be paying for them. Also don't worry about upsetting him by posting details on this forum, remember this isn't personal, it's a business relationship and more importantly your retirement savings! Edited April 12, 2018 by ultramods 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted April 12, 2018 Share Posted April 12, 2018 Could I just add, that when you and your builder next discuss things, you ask outright if "there is anything else". I wish I could get away with, with my customers, what he is getting away with, with you. Dont feel daft and not post here, that WOULD be daft. Maybe let him know that this episode is being logged online with an audience of 1000's and you'd really prefer not to drop him into the bubbling couldron of boiling fat that is an online / social media slaughtering. That would make me poop my kegs. No need to mention where, as there are many hundreds of forums where you "could" execute such an action. Time to stop being a kitten and get your tiger claws on . Get weathertight and then get a fresh, firm grip on things. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nod Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 8 hours ago, Hecateh said: Thanks If it wasn't for reading on here about other FU I think I may well have done something stupid over this, I feel so stupid. He isn't a bad guy, just inexperienced, very young, and not really adult enough to fully accept responsibility although he wants to do the right thing so long as it doesn't cost him. Thank F he isn't on here But also His learning curve shouldn’t be at your expense 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 So what swayed you to take on this 28 year old builder? 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hecateh Posted April 13, 2018 Author Share Posted April 13, 2018 (edited) On 13/04/2018 at 00:05, ultramods said: I think you are being far too lenient with the builder. Ok, he may be young and inexperienced but he has decided to start a business and if he has underestimated that is for him to absorb and to learn from - not you. Having said that, I think you have been naive in not having a full breakdown of what was included in the fixed price that he was offering. However I would have expected him to be notifying you of any variances before carrying out the work. 45k on a 96m2 house seams like a massive oversight (that would be almost 50% overspend on my build) and i think you need to be firmer with the builder. Maybe even seek legal advice. Or if you are happy posting here, post the details of what was/wasn't/included in the fixed price contract. when PeterW was asking you about the window sizes I think he was wanting to know the total area of windows/doors for your houses as we could then tell you an estimate of what you should be paying for them. Also don't worry about upsetting him by posting details on this forum, remember this isn't personal, it's a business relationship and more importantly your retirement savings! You are absolutely right in everything you say. Problem is he can just down tools and walk away and I can't afford for the work to stop and get involved in a legal battle. Main finance is from a bridging loan that is high interest and HAS to be paid back at the end of November. I thought we did have a full breakdown and feel that he should have been the one to spot that the details I gave him didn't cover everything. If it hadn't been for the initial shock at the start for the foundations we probably would have but everything go tied up with that. I was already stressed with that and trusted naively (as you say) that everything was in there. It is a huge overspend. The initial quote was for 89k. I have already paid 15k extra for the foundations and sewerage pump and this is an extra 45k I'll do a separate post about window sizes - in fact everything I need - any help offered will be very gratefully received. Oh - and the social media thing - He has already sulked and accused me of slandering him and his team. On 13/04/2018 at 00:05, Nickfromwales said: Could I just add, that when you and your builder next discuss things, you ask outright if "there is anything else". I wish I could get away with, with my customers, what he is getting away with, with you. Dont feel daft and not post here, that WOULD be daft. Maybe let him know that this episode is being logged online with an audience of 1000's and you'd really prefer not to drop him into the bubbling couldron of boiling fat that is an online / social media slaughtering. That would make me poop my kegs. No need to mention where, as there are many hundreds of forums where you "could" execute such an action. Time to stop being a kitten and get your tiger claws on . Get weathertight and then get a fresh, firm grip on things. I have asked him that - 'he doesn't think so'. Not a great answer. See above for why I won't be mentioning the social media - at least until the weather tight stage. He seems to think he is the one that is being wronged by being asked to take at least some responsibility for this. On 13/04/2018 at 07:58, nod said: But also His learning curve shouldn’t be at your expense That's my argument On 13/04/2018 at 08:45, Onoff said: So what swayed you to take on this 28 year old builder? At least you've made me smile. But no - he's a Barnsley lad "wi' gift a' gab" . Probably better not post his pic on here. Having said that - I've seen his wife on facebook and she is head turning so maybe he does have something. Edited April 14, 2018 by Hecateh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hecateh Posted April 13, 2018 Author Share Posted April 13, 2018 The pic shows what is left to be done The blue background isn't in the quote the beige one is what is in the quote. The pink is an extra I picked up. The budget that is is left is around 16k. In red are my priorities so I can at least camp in there - not that I need to yet but as soon as the scaffolding is down I want to get this house properly on the market. When this sells I can then afford - hopefully, to do more. I can get hold of a bit more cash - credit cards and a couple of family members but it all has to be paid back and I have no income so can't get a regular mortgage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 16 minutes ago, Hecateh said: maybe he does have something. Yes, your cash. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 Too late, I know, but when we first started thinking seriously about self-build, around ten years ago, the first thing I did was think about the type of house we would want, and do some research on that, the second thing I did was join this forum's predecessor, ebuild, and make a bit of a fool of myself by asking some pretty dumb questions. Luckily, that forum , like this one, highlighted lots of things I needed to consider, and the one thing that kept recurring was that there were potentially major cost risks that needed to be mitigated, and that builders/main contractors/project managers/architects were consistently poor at managing the price the client ended up paying. I gained the very strong impression, pretty early on, that managing the risk of going over-budget was going to be really bloody hard. That was reinforced by having watched every episode of Grand Designs, where busting the budget seems to be a feature of the majority of builds they show. When we found our plot, my main priority, bar none, was nailing down the prices we were going to have to pay for the various stages of the build. I probably put more effort into taking risk out of the build than anything else, and it very definitely influenced the way I contracted for every major build area. Our ground works contract was done to a firm price, against a very well defined specification, with no variations at all to be undertaken with out written consent and an amended firm price. The same applied to the water supply borehole, and also to the house foundation and erection to watertight stage, we had a detailed contract that included drawings and written specifications, with an agreed stage payment plan and the exact definition of the work that needed to be completed in order for that stage payment to be made. The roofing, fascias and guttering were also done to a tightly defined written specification at a firm price, as was the window supply and fitting and the solar panel installation. It was only when that work was completed that I changed to getting some of the smaller jobs done to a firm price, some done on a day rate, as by that time I had a better feel for the way the building industry works. The upside of this approach was that I knew what all the major costs would be upfront, the downside was that i probably paid a little bit more for the ground works as they included a risk contingency in their costing that they didn't end up incurring, but I'd heard so much about unforeseen ground works cost problems that I had already decided that the ground work risk was not one I wanted to bear, so would rather pay a bit more to get a firm price, with no risk to us. We did run out of money towards the end, but only because we opted to go for higher spec stuff. We went about £5k or so over budget on the kitchen, maybe £1k over on the bathrooms, about £2k over on internal joinery and at least £5k over on the landscaping, partly as a consequence of the unforeseen actions of a neighbour cutting down a 30ft high hedge and creating a major privacy problem. We also incurred an additional cost of around £4k to £5k in trying to keep a neighbour onside, which, with hindsight, was not a good move at all. All the over-spend (around £17k to £18k), plus around a year of delay caused by problems with the borehole, meaning I did a great deal of work that really should have been done by the borehole company, ended up being paid for by saving up money each month from my pension, and doing the work as I could afford it. All told this added at least two years to the build, which itself increased cost, as we have been paying Council Tax for over a year now whilst I slowly finished off some of the extra work. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 On a more serious note, have you started to explore the legal paths open to you. I say this as in my experience, when someone starts to become difficult, they want out the job. Ask @recoveringacademic about this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hecateh Posted April 13, 2018 Author Share Posted April 13, 2018 I am looking at quotes for windows for 4 at 1200 x 1200 3 at 630 x 1200 1 patio - wanted bifold but settling for a 3 pane slider - 2700 x 2100 1 set of french doors with extra side panel to bedroom (Juliette balcony) 2 external doors - wanted composite but settling for uPVC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hecateh Posted April 13, 2018 Author Share Posted April 13, 2018 (edited) 16 minutes ago, SteamyTea said: On a more serious note, have you started to explore the legal paths open to you. I say this as in my experience, when someone starts to become difficult, they want out the job. Ask @recoveringacademic about this. Can't afford it - And - I have a quote which doesn't include these things - legally I doubt I have a leg to stand on. Legally I am responsible for ensuring the quote covers everything needed. Morally I think it's largely his. If I'd found this forum earlier, I'm pretty sure I wouldn't be in this mess. Whilst not being as thorough as @JSHarris I would have been much more on the ball. If he had included the things he is now charging 45k for my guess is they would have come in at 20k at most. Pretty sure he does want out now which is why I am trying to keep him on side until the roof is on. After that I don't care - I can sort it from there is I have to. Edited April 13, 2018 by Hecateh additional comment Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 26 minutes ago, Hecateh said: The pic shows what is left to be done The blue background isn't in the quote the beige one is what is in the quote. The pink is an extra I picked up. The budget that is is left is around 16k. In red are my priorities so I can at least camp in there - not that I need to yet but as soon as the scaffolding is down I want to get this house properly on the market. When this sells I can then afford - hopefully, to do more. I'm sure you've already considered this but worth ensuring that the things you do before you 'camp in there' do not make you liable to pay council tax from that point (unless budgeted for). 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hecateh Posted April 13, 2018 Author Share Posted April 13, 2018 10 minutes ago, newhome said: I'm sure you've already considered this but worth ensuring that the things you do before you 'camp in there' do not make you liable to pay council tax from that point (unless budgeted for). I won't be camping in there until this one is sold so I have no problem with paying if I am living there. I do need to make sure it can't be classed as habitable although I think I am ok. I have talked with the officer at the council and she said to let her know when it was ready 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 1 hour ago, Hecateh said: At least you've made me smile. But no - he's a rough Barnsley lad "wi' gift a' gab" . Probably better not post his pic on here. Having said that - I've seen his wife on facebook and she is head turning so maybe he does have something. That's generally an Essex thing, fugly builders with well fit other halves... 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 1 hour ago, Hecateh said: Having said that - I've seen his wife on facebook and she is head turning so maybe he does have something. And we can only speculate what that 'something' might be 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Construction Channel Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 1 hour ago, Hecateh said: I am looking at quotes for windows for 4 at 1200 x 1200 3 at 630 x 1200 1 patio - wanted bifold but settling for a 3 pane slider - 2700 x 2100 1 set of french doors with extra side panel to bedroom (Juliette balcony) 2 external doors - wanted composite but settling for uPVC Where abouts are you based again? We use a company called tritec based near Braintree/ Chelmsford, Always busy but their prices are competitive I have found. Might be worth just asking for a quote. If you say you need it as cheap as possible they will probably help if they can. http://www.tritecwindows.co.uk/ 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Construction Channel Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 Also if you do want composite doors check on eBay. They are a lot cheaper there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Construction Channel Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 40 minutes ago, Onoff said: That's generally an Essex thing, fugly builders with well fit other halves... I find that deeply offensive ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Onoff Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 4 minutes ago, Construction Channel said: I find that deeply offensive ? Your ears burning were they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newhome Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 We got ours from Alpine Windows in Leeds. Only because we wanted integral Uniblinds and they supplied them but it sounds like they might be quite close to you. They were much cheaper than other quotes we had and 9 years on seem to be fine. https://alpinewindowanddoorsystems.co.uk/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 2 hours ago, Hecateh said: Oh - and the social media thing - He has already sulked and accused me of slandering him and his team. I have a facebook page which is mainly for pictures. He has accused me of slandering (obviously he doesn't understand what that really means) by saying that " 'apparently' the vehicle broke down " and asked me to remove a comment from someone who jokingly said 'they look like a right bunch of cowboys.'. Quite simple. Stare him in the eyes and say "perfect opportunity for you to prove them wrong, isn't it?" and let him know your 'review' will be warts as well as praise. Dont give him any more ground than he has already taken from you, thats not the direction you want to take. At the very least you need to stand firm, but as said, id look at gaining a few inches, one at a time. More presence, daily breakdown of where he's at, all ongoing communication reiterated in emails, and that'll send a message that if he drops the ball he's accountable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hecateh Posted April 13, 2018 Author Share Posted April 13, 2018 36 minutes ago, Construction Channel said: Where abouts are you based again? We use a company called tritec based near Braintree/ Chelmsford, Always busy but their prices are competitive I have found. Might be worth just asking for a quote. If you say you need it as cheap as possible they will probably help if they can. http://www.tritecwindows.co.uk/ I doubt they'd be cheaper for me - I'm in Yorkshire - close to junction 36 M1 35 minutes ago, Construction Channel said: Also if you do want composite doors check on eBay. They are a lot cheaper there. Going fo supply and fit so that's not really an option. Looking on ebay for other things 7 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said: Quite simple. Stare him in the eyes and say "perfect opportunity for you to prove them wrong, isn't it?" and let him know your 'review' will be warts as well as praise. Dont give him any more ground than he has already taken from you, thats not the direction you want to take. At the very least you need to stand firm, but as said, id look at gaining a few inches, one at a time. More presence, daily breakdown of where he's at, all ongoing communication reiterated in emails, and that'll send a message that if he drops the ball he's accountable. I am trying - AND I'll be trying even harder once we are watertight He's coming back to me this afternoon with a breakdown of what he can do with the original price if we move out some of the none essential and add other ore important bits. I'll post on here what he comes up with. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nickfromwales Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 4 minutes ago, Hecateh said: I am trying - AND I'll be trying even harder once we are watertight Inch by inch 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ToughButterCup Posted April 13, 2018 Share Posted April 13, 2018 @Hecateh, have you got someone you can trust to sit in on the meeting with you? Take notes at the meeting. Have an agenda (on paper). Construct the agenda carefully Stick to it. List the outcomes and deliverables for each point Send him a copy 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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