Completing my Forever Home

[Juj]

Hi all! First time posting, but I've been devouring the contents of the site for a few months whilst getting funding sorted for the next phase in my building. (A great source of information and debate!)

 

Warning, it's a long post!

 

A bit of background..

I bought a plot with an existing bungalow in 2011, the previous builder had run out of cash mid-build so that the site was in a real state to the untrained eye. At this stage, I pretty much struggled to change a lightbulb, so it was a fairly huge undertaking to build the 5 bed home that I had in mind.  One of the first things I did whilst we were waiting for completion was to grab a shovel and start digging up some of the garden.  About 3 hours later, back aching and hands raw, I'd only scratched the surface of what is almost 0.8 of an acre! That was when my builder came past and recommended I hire a rotavator, that was the first of about a million lessons I learnt on the build!

 

 

 

Present

So I've managed to build a nice 5-bed bungalow that we've been happily residing in for the last few years and still have foundations in place from the first builder for a fairly huge garage block (11m x 9m) and also another detached annexe (9m x 6m). The intention was to finish the outbuildings/ do the driveway when funds allowed, however, one thing has lead to another and the plans have grown so that the detached garage attaches to the main building, creating a more useable space with another floor above it with additional bedrooms.  The reason for this is that my family has increased since we moved in (my brother is now married, my parents live with us, and I've had 3 children!) so we'd like to create zones for each family.

 

 

The Plan

I've been messing around with plans whilst sorting out funding and have come up with something that I think looks good and has all the space we'd need.  The main limiting factor in our case is funds, the plot is more than large enough and our area has a fairly high ceiling for house prices.  With this in mind, any advice on keeping the building costs as low as possible will be much appreciated.  Another reason for sharing my plans with you guys is that with your vast knowledge of whats to come, I'm hoping you might pick up on some aspects which I may have overlooked.  I'm not an expert by any means, though I've gained enough skills since the initial build with further projects that I feel comfortable managing the build myself and getting my hands dirty where I can to save money.

 

 

Things I'm considering/ decided and would welcome your experiences on...

Heating and Hot Water

This is a pretty big consideration to be honest, my current thoughts are to install a ground source heat pump with boreholes, this will provide the UFH throughout the new build.  The current part of the house I'd like to keep intact as much as possible so I've not intention of ripping the floors up and installing UFH, so the existing rads will have to do, but ideally I'd get rid of the combi boiler which is struggling to meet our demands at the moment and isn't in great nick.  I'm not sure whether a system exists that will give us a whole home solution, with hot enough water and low running costs.  As I have gas, I'd be reluctant to install an electric hot water tank, I'd imagine a gas fired would be significantly cheaper to run, though I've never seen this paired with a Ground Source Heat Pump.

 

Tesla Solar Roof

Ever since I saw this, I've wanted it! With the limited information there is out there, the cost of installing this is going to be somewhat similar to a slate roof but with the added benefit of providing enough solar energy for our needs, including electric cars (we already have 2 Nissan Leafs!)  Obviously, the main drawback is that I'm going to have to wait for it, I've already put a deposit down which doesn't mean anything for timescales but I'm willing to wait a while longer as I think this will both add value to my home, provide the energy we need and also look outstanding too.  However, that's not to say that I'll wait forever, and with my budgetary restrictions, this is definitely a luxury so I'd appreciate some alternatives or suggestion you guys may have.

 

ICF

I intend to build the extension in ICF, I'm currently favouring Nudura simply because my architect has recently completed a project using this system and there's a fairly local supplier.  The reason I'm favouring ICF is that I think I could handle putting the shell together (with a little help) and I believe this will not only save costs, but time too as well as taking away a trade we normally sub out.  Additionally, the added benefit of a tighter shell with better u values than block and render is a welcome bonus, especially with the amount of glazing I'd like.

 

Cladding

For some reason, I'd always assumed the cheapest way to clad a building was to render it, so I've not really explored many other options.  Based on some calculations, it seems that many cladding options such as wood are going to cost a similar amount so it's something I'd like to know more about, how have you guys decided what to use and why (design/ budget/ maintenance etc.?)

 

Structural Spans

At the moment my architect (he's not a full architect) hasn't began work on putting my design together, but before he does, I'd like to know if there are any major structural issues that make my design unfeasible. I will obviously use a structural engineer too, but before it gets to that stage, I'd like to know the impact of my design and whether I should try to create an internal structural wall that can reduce the span (9m).  Are there any other options? 

 

Costs

I'm going to be adding somewhere along the lines of 600m2 including the annexe, ground floor, first floor and mezzanine levels.  Going through some of the build cost calculators gives me some rather worrying figures but they don't necessarily account for the fact that most ground works are in place, including services which i took the liberty of adding water/ gas and network cabling to the other buildings already.  Since our existing home serves our purposes for now, there is no rush to get everything done from the get go, so I envisage completing areas and rooms as and when time and funds allow, so my main budget needs to get the shell built including the roof and windows, electrics and plumbing (both 1st fix only). Ideally I'd like it to be clad and looking finished from the outside baring any landscaping and driveway which will be the icing on the cake eventually.  I think I'm going to have a pot of around £200k-£300k to get to that stage, so I'd be interested to know if you think I'm crazy or not!  With all of this in mind, I'd love for some cost saving measures you think would be relevant to the build, I know the basics such as shopping around, thinking outside of the box with suppliers (direct from factory etc) 

 

Thanks for taking the time to read, I'm looking forward to hearing what you guys make of my project!

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 20, 2018 by Juj
Grammar

[Guest Alphonsox]

Hi and Welcome to the forum, It looks like you have a fun projet on your hands there !

 

A quick thought on the heating and DHW - As you have gas use it and nothing else. GSHPs are notoriously expensive to install and have regular maintaence costs that add up. You can easily install a system to supply your UFH, radiators and DHW from gas at significanly lower cost.

 

The Tesla PV system does look nice but as you noted there are still questions about cost and availability in the UK. The other thing I would be concerned with is the very evident problems Tesla are having in scalling up their good ideas to large scale production.

[Nickfromwales]

Hi and welcome. Your plans look really interesting and I really like the mono -pitch roof. Your plans shows in a few different orientations, which ways south ?

First observation is move the stairs to the mezzanine further back to get some head height as you hit the top step. . 

Ill add later re the plumbing / heating ?

[Alexphd1]

Hi & welcome. Very impressive looking project. I am a big fan of ICF esp nudara and I am planning to use it again on build 2. Budget looks a bight tight remembering I don't think you will be zero vat (maybe wrong). I am sure there will be a few more folk along shortly to say hello.

[Juj]

Alphonsox - Heating and Hot water from gas would certainly be helpful with the budget, and I do seem to be hearing more scare stories than success stories to be honest. Regards to Tesla, tell me about it, I got my name down for a Model 3 on the first day and it doesn't look like I'll be getting it until 2019 at the earliest, they've not even released the cheaper model I want! My thinking is that if I end up paying something remotely close to the Tesla roof for a nice flush slate roof, I'll be kicking myself when it does finally come out.

 

NickfromWales - Thanks, I think it looks quite striking too, bringing some modern design to what is quite a traditional/ boring bungalow.  When you look at the 3d renderings, south is from the left hand side so the balcony on the new part would be facing south. Regarding the mezzanine steps, they're totally out of whack in the sketch, I added them FYI but rushed it! lol They will be set further in and won't be set quite so high.

 

Alexphd1 - I need to clarify the situation with zero rating, when we first built the property, it had been unoccupied for more than 10 years which meant it was zero rated.  I kept all of the receipts but as the build wasn't complete, I didn't apply for the VAT back thinking I'd shortly be completing the other buildings.  Well, that turned in to 7 years later, we've obviously been living in the property, however, its not technically complete as we didn't get the building completion certificate since we weren't yet finished.  I'm not sure where we stand at the moment but zero rating would be a massive bonus, though I'm doubtful we'll get it.  The budget is definitely my biggest concern, and although I'm not under any real pressure to complete it quickly, with the rate at which materials seem to go up, its only going to get more costly as time goes by. 

Edited March 20, 2018 by Juj

[newhome]

12 minutes ago, Juj said:

I need to clarify the situation with zero rating, when we first built the property, it had been unoccupied for more than 10 years which meant it was zero rated.  I kept all of the receipts but as the build wasn't complete, I didn't apply for the VAT back thinking I'd shortly be completing the other buildings.  Well, that turned in to 7 years later, we've obviously been living in the property, however, its not technically complete as we didn't get the building completion certificate since we weren't yet finished.  I'm not sure where we stand at the moment but zero rating would be a massive bonus, though I'm doubtful we'll get it.  The budget is definitely my biggest concern, and although I'm not under any real pressure to complete it quickly, with the rate at which materials seem to go up, its only going to get more costly as time goes by. 

 

Where do you stand with the building warrant? Have you completed everything prescribed in the original warrant or are you planning to amend the warrant to take in the new work rather than complete the work under the existing warrant and apply for a new one?  

 

And planning permission? You can only claim the vat refund on the work covered by the planning permission I believe. 

 

I have just put in a vat claim for my (new build) house 7 years after work started. I have yet to hear whether I will be successful but I am remaining hopeful. 

 

 

[Alexphd1]

tricky one with the vat hopefully you can tick the boxes to claim both.

 

Your budget is certainly do able, we are doing similar type of figures. Don't underestimate your job, we are researching everything shopping around and doing all the build ourselves..... very time consuming!

 

Think out the box.... we are in the process of buying a graco spray insulation machine to cut cost!

[ToughButterCup]

9 hours ago, Alexphd1 said:

[...]

Think out the box.... we are in the process of buying a [...]

 

@Juj, because @Alexphd1 did (think out of the box) and because he bothered to post about it, he saved me a few thousand quid.

 

Be they ever so humble - simple wheels for a scaffolding - 

 

that means that I can put my scaffolding where I want it, when I want to. And, because of local labour shortage, it means I can be a little more independant  (code for DIY) .

 

Where's the saving?  Scaffold installation cost and monthly hire fees after the first month.  Minus the loss on the scaffolding resale of course: probably a few hundred quid plus the VAT. That's easily recouped (here at least) because of labour and skills shortages.

 

@Alexphd1, on your way down the M6, J33? Bottle of excellent malt waiting. Ian

[Alexphd1]

@recoveringacademicThis makes life v easy!

 

Much appreciated for the offer but I think I owe more folk on here than deserve. Keep her and crack her open when the beams are in!

Edited March 21, 2018 by Alexphd1

[Luckylad]

12 hours ago, Alexphd1 said:

Think out the box.... we are in the process of buying a graco spray insulation machine to cut cost!

Hello to @juj, looks like a very interesting project, hope you get the vat sorted.

Sorry about being off topic, but @Alexphd1 , do you have any info on that graco machine?

 

 

[epsilonGreedy]

I might be guilty of speed reading the OP but has the plan been validated tentatively from a planning perspective?

 

Forum members here are likely to embrace modern architecture with enthusiasm unlike your local community who could decree the roof shape and scale of the building to be unacceptable.

[Alexphd1]

@Luckylad msg sent

[Juj]

4 hours ago, epsilonGreedy said:

I might be guilty of speed reading the OP but has the plan been validated tentatively from a planning perspective?

 

Forum members here are likely to embrace modern architecture with enthusiasm unlike your local community who could decree the roof shape and scale of the building to be unacceptable.

@epsilonGreedy I've shown the designs to the planners at a drop in centre and they didn't have any objections.  I don't have any neighbours closer than 200m so there shouldn't be too many valid objections, although some people will complain about anything so fingers crossed there are no hiccups there.  

[Juj]

@Alexphd1It certainly looks as thought you've learnt a few tricks and shortcuts! I'm especially fond of buying expensive equipment that ends up saving me money, though I'd need to do a fair amount of painting (just read properly, your insulating!) to recoup my money on a Graco machine.  

 

Over and above the cost of the equipment, how does the cost of insulation compare to more traditional rock wool for example?

Edited March 21, 2018 by Juj

[Alexphd1]

I don't want to divert your thread to far away from original post but never really looked at Rockwool, not very practical with thickness for u value. It's a lot less than kingspan like for like u-value. 

This is a pretty good thread for more info.

 

[epsilonGreedy]

3 hours ago, Juj said:

@epsilonGreedy I've shown the designs to the planners at a drop in centre and they didn't have any objections.  I don't have any neighbours closer than 200m so there shouldn't be too many valid objections, although some people will complain about anything so fingers crossed there are no hiccups there.

 

 

Ok. My first thought was that the new build dwarfs the original. Kevin McCloud would say "with a bold and commendable disregard for the mundane local vernacular, Juj has propelled local architecture into the 21st Century or possibly the 22nd".    

Edited March 21, 2018 by epsilonGreedy

[Ferdinand]

This is a fascinating project, @Juj. I may be guilty of looking too hard for problems in this post.

 

I've been thinking about this a little, and I think you are perhaps too focused at this stage on what we in IT call implementation-technology (building materials, heating systems etc), and that it may be beneficial to step back and explore the context and purpose a bit more. Implementation is about how you create something, and is only meaningful once you have decided why you want to create it, and what you want to create. Apols if you have done this sufficiently, but let me ask some questions to test that.

 

I can think of at least 4 areas deserving thought - What are you building and why, Planning, Legal / Financial / Tax Setup, and How you plan to live in it. I hope I can express this clearly enough.

 

Is this 3 dwellings, or 1 large dwelling you intend to live in as 3 socially conjoined households? Looking at the plans (no internal link between you and your brother's sections), it looks like a pair of posh semis, one of which has a detached parent-annexe, in a joint garden, behind a single wall, with a shared entrance. That is possibly neither one thing nor t'other. Which could make it complicated when trying to make it fit into Planning and Legal systems.

 

Examples of possible complications - How will this be assessed by planning when you apply? How will it be assessed for Council Tax? What happens if one family breaks up and one of the former Mrs @Juj's suddenly becomes entitled to half the assets of her marriage, which include half of one-third of your joint forever-house? Could you potentially trigger HMO regulations?

 

As presented, I think it is a "compound" not a dwelling, and that is something which likely cuts across the grain of UK Planning and other Law, which is oriented around the concept of the nuclear family. The consequence of that is that you may hit obstacles at every point. Compounds are more characteristic in general of Africa, Asia or Latin America afaik.

 

The only areas where I am aware of separate-but-joint family dwellings together in the UK are:

 

- localised family businesses such as farms and possibly Estates

- within immigrant communities where extended families are the norm (*)

- in legally separate but socially associated dwellings (eg 3 houses next to each other)

- in single dwellings with related families (nuclear family Brits reverting to earlier social forms),

- in communities with somewhat different institutional or planning arrangements (eg traveller communities or intentional communities such as the Bruderhof).

- perhaps in some areas outside England / Wales where there  are fewer restrictions on some forms of planning (crofting or - in Eire - small townships)

 

There may be lessons to learn from all of these, especially as to how and what should be set up legally, and what socially, and how to mix the two.

 

And you need to think about social interactions ... eg there need to be indoor and outdoor places for privacy and interaction for each person, each family, and all the extended family together.

 

I am sure it can be done, and be done successfully, but you need a planning, legal, financial, and social routemap, and the flexibility for whatever you build to fit in, and be adjusted, for whatever might happen in the future.

 

Specific comments

 

- I would probably build it such that it can be split into 2, if not 3, separate dwellings, fairly painlessly. 

 

- My gut feel is that building your 2 zones with a gap to be filled in with a link later (either officially or JFDI behind a visual block) that can be removed to make 2 detached houses may be a good and tax-efficient way, either by sale of plot or by sale of finished house. If you go for a single dwelling then you need to think carefully about ownership setup and implications.

 

- If you do not have residential PP for the front-annexe already, it may be tricky to get due to closeness to road and relation to the building line. Perhaps lessons to be learnt from city infills - visual intrusion may be a key consideration (grow a big hedge?).

 

- Building of the Year was a multi-related-family thing on an Estate last year, but they seemed to be as rich as Croesus.

 

- I hope the whole thing so far is one PP, or if not that you can prove that development of your extra foundations started within 3 years.

 

- I would go for a sweep driveway, or careful layout, to facilitate a later split.

 

- I think that pre-Planning advice from the LPA would be advantageous here, and perhaps relevant consultation with experts and planning consultants.

 

@Calvinmiddle's Planning Saga may have relevant insights on how to navigate the system - see his blog.

 

@Construction Channel's experience with Planning may be pertinent. I think he is the only Buildhubber doing his development on his family's own property (redeveloping a barn on a farm). Lots of similar on Grand Designs over the years.

 

- Strongly recommend a book called "A Pattern Language", which has much insight about the social functioning of buildings, and a set of concepts for design / test. In addition there are many international insights and examples. Website: https://www.patternlanguage.com/

 

Ferdinand

 

 

 

Edited March 23, 2018 by Ferdinand

[Juj]

@Ferdinand Thanks for your detailed reply. All of your points are well made and great advice, but we have already considered them.  On the planning angle, our site is restricted to only ever being allowed to have one dwelling, ancillary buildings are fine, but can not be sold off etc. I have met with LPA and was advised they had no real concerns with my proposal and encouraged me to submit the plans for full approval.  The existing foundations have already been granted full planning for 1.5 storeys.

 

Regarding the legalities and complexities of living together, who owns what etc,  It's quite difficult to go in to the details, but essentially, we all pay in equally and are happy to help each other in times of need. There are no formal contracts to us living together and no one owns more or less than any other, if for any reason one party or other decides they no longer wish to exist in this environment, then we will make suitable arrangements, but this is something we are all committed to and have discussed at length.  It's difficult for many people to understand and there are drawbacks to living together, but also many plusses.  

 

As to why we want to build, it comes down to space, we would all like our own space from time to time, but also appreciate shared spaces where we can unwind and also entertain. This building will give us the best of both worlds.

[Ferdinand]

Glad all that has been considered .

 

Good to hear.

 

F