ICF Comparison

[willbish]

Ive been researching the many different ICF products on the market recently and have complied some data for comparison. A lot of the info is available online, but details from some manufacturers aren't so easy to find.

 

The spreadsheet is far from complete or exhaustive, the products with the most detail are the ones I've been personally interested in and have sought quotes. Ive settled on a product now and my motivation has moved on to the next pressing decision!

 

Hope this is some help to anyone thinking of building with ICF

 

 

[Vijay]

Surprised Amvic came in so cheap for you, they were one of the more expensive when I compared for my build

[Alexphd1]

Handy table. We also looked at quad lock and thermohouse. Went for nudara in the end, and are very happy. 2 other properties locally used amvic both look v nice.

[Russell griffiths]

This table is very handy for me so thanks for doing it, 

however it is based on a lot of figures rather than a lot of the points I have thought of when trying to decide which icf. 

 

My main thoughts were 

ease of use, how user friendly is the product ?

second fixing, if you need to fit battens how will they fix ?

how does the reinforcement fix, does it need tying in or does it lock in ? Having to tie the reo at corners will take time. 

How neat do the blocks look after they have been filled. I have viewed two sites near to me using icf, one looks neat and tidy and easy to clad, the other looks as though you will need to pack a lot of the battens or rasp down areas that look a bit wonky. 

 

Just my take on it, I will get a couple of quotes but won’t be picking the cheapest. 

However the cheapest one on your list is one I liked. ?

Edited March 1, 2018 by Russell griffiths

[Russell griffiths]

Whilst we are on the subject of icf, I spoke recently to a rep of one of the major suppliers, regarding thicker insulation on the outside skin of their blocks 

he said it was funny how in Canada they just use the standard block and it is only the uk market that ask for thicker blocks. 

 

Are we over thinking u values, or do the Canadians not mind having a heating bill. 

 

I do wonder about having 400mm thick walls and then a sliding door 5.5m wide slap bang in the middle of it. 

Thoughts. 

[Gone West]

12 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

I do wonder about having 400mm thick walls and then a sliding door 5.5m wide slap bang in the middle of it. 

Thoughts. 

If you are having a heating system then you can adjust that to suit your construction. You could reduce the size of the sliding doors. I would have thought they would need a heating system in Canada whatever the thickness of the walls so there isn't a saving to be had in not installing a heating system. Our walls are 500mm thick but living in the South East of England allows us to not have a conventional heating system.

[Triassic]

40 minutes ago, Russell griffiths said:

Whilst we are on the subject of icf, I spoke recently to a rep of one of the major suppliers, regarding thicker insulation on the outside skin of their blocks

1

Our design calls for an additional layer of insulation on the outside. I'm using EPS70 as its cheaper than thicker ICF blocks.

 

As its so cold I'm looking at waterproof concrete options for ICF, as an alternative to membranes.

[Alexphd1]

+plus 1 for adding on 150-200mm eps on to a standard block as. eps70 is v cheap on the next job.

 

@Triassic i will be interested in which way you go regading waterproof icf.

[Triassic]

I don't have standing groundwater as we are building in an area of limestone. Our basement is built into a hillside, so is open to the lawn at the front. No matter how hard it rains the site is free from standing water and the exposed rock faces inside our excavation don't show any signs of water. so my current thinking is to install a toe drain around the base of the basement raft. The raft will have a thick Radon barrier installed between the layers of insulation. The raft and the ICF wall will then be cast using waterproof concrete. The joint between the raft and the walls will have a hydrophilic water stop installed.

[Triassic]

Regarding the waterproof concrete, we have two concrete batch plant locally and only one that does waterproof concrete, I'm just awaiting a price.

 

The alternative is to buy the sachets of admix at £37.00/sachet per cube of concrete and I'd add it to the mixer lorry on arrival. Doing it this way the admix would cost £1,666 for the basement walls and raft. Wow that sounds a lot !

[SteamyTea]

4 hours ago, Russell griffiths said:

he said it was funny how in Canada they just use the standard block and it is only the uk market that ask for thicker blocks.

They pay about 66p/litre for heating oil in Canada, so about 7p/kWh.

And when I was over there in November, I noticed a lot of ICF places being build.  They added a lot of extra insulation to the outside.

[ToughButterCup]

19 hours ago, willbish said:

 

Hope this is some help to anyone thinking of building with ICF

 

 

 

What a useful, thoughtful thing to have done. Thanks very much indeed.

Ian

[Russell griffiths]

6 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

They pay about 66p/litre for heating oil in Canada, so about 7p/kWh.

And when I was over there in November, I noticed a lot of ICF places being build.  They added a lot of extra insulation to the outside.

Did it look like they were using a standard width block and adding sheet insulation. 

[SteamyTea]

Yes.

Though I could not get up close to measure it.

Think I may have a picture somewhere of the first part they were doing.  Shall see if I can find it after work.

[Alexphd1]

4 hours ago, Triassic said:

I don't have standing groundwater as we are building in an area of limestone. Our basement is built into a hillside, so is open to the lawn at the front. No matter how hard it rains the site is free from standing water and the exposed rock faces inside our excavation don't show any signs of water. so my current thinking is to install a toe drain around the base of the basement raft. The raft will have a thick Radon barrier installed between the layers of insulation. The raft and the ICF wall will then be cast using waterproof concrete. The joint between the raft and the walls will have a hydrophilic water stop installed.

 

I could copy and paste the above for our job description!

[Luckylad]

I’m really interested in icf,thanks for putting this up.

Does the internal and external  insulation come already built into the wall? 

[ToughButterCup]

4 minutes ago, Luckylad said:

[...]

Does the internal and external  insulation come already built into the wall? 

 

In the case of ours, Durisol, yes.

But there are many other systems; each one needs to be carefully examined.

 

What makes you interested in ICF? 

[Luckylad]

Many years ago a house using icf was built near me and it was the talk of the town! Just looks an interesting way to build ,  what do you think of your durisol?

What stage of your build are you at?

Did you build it yourself ?

why did you choose durisol above the other systems on offer?

sorry about all the questions!

[SteamyTea]

15 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Think I may have a picture somewhere of the first part they were doing. 

Had a look and I can't find it.  Which is odd as I never delete pictures.

[ToughButterCup]

13 hours ago, Luckylad said:

[...]

sorry about all the questions!

 

Well, since you ask, here goes, 

Here's what I have already written....Using the site search feature you come up with this list That'll make for some quiet fire-side reading

 

If you don't want the detail;

 

The good: it's relatively cheap, but not the cheapest. It lends itself to self-build. Properly organised (I haven't been) it's quick. Once cured, the shell is very strong indeed. The roof has still to be fitted; wind and weather are irrelevant. It's easy to adapt it -  to tweak it to the shape you need. 

 

The Bad: in the sector,  as yet there is limited experience of the system. Need more blocks? Go to Wales and get them. You can't pop down the BM to get some more. DURISOL dust is 'king horrible.  Get just one rouge labourer (who mistreats the blocks)  and he can cost you many thousands of pounds.

 

Luckily I used a time-lapse camera and have evidence of what amounts to gross misconduct on the part of one man. The original build company has not been paid for it's poor workmanship, and Durisol sorted the mess out for £1500 less than the original builder charged.

 

The system is fine. In the hands of a company (if that's the route for your build) that knows what to do, has a good deal of experience using it, then you will have a fast, strong build.

If you want to DIY, that's fine too.

 

Almost all the significant problems I have had (see list above) have been of my own making;

• unjustifiable confidence in local un-skilled  labour
• failure to  identify shortcomings  and then to demand proper standards of building
• failure to project manage well: 

The support I have had from Durisol has been faultless. They were on site instantly when we add big problems. They were flexible about price when we needed another £1500  worth of blocks (see Nightmare in the list  above)

 

If there were to be a next house (there won't be), I would use Durisol again. But I would do it all myself. Every last block. It's about attention to detail. And I now know exactly which details to look for.

 

[Luckylad]

Thanks for the search information.

Wall bracing seems to be one of the most important items with all icf.

Did you allow for this in your costing? 

What finishes are you going to put inside and outside 

[ToughButterCup]

18 hours ago, Luckylad said:

[,,,]

Wall bracing seems to be one of the most important items with all icf.

Did you allow for this in your costing? 

What finishes are you going to put inside and outside 

 

There is no need for wall bracing with Durisol. I say 'no' need: it's wise to have some at certain points. All the bits of bracing we did have been reused, so the nett marginal cost is  0.

We are going to Timber clad.

 

In the interest of full disclosure, we had a criminally negligent labourer who damaged wall blocks beyond repair. The evidence of his criminality only became evident during the pour. But the monetary cost of making good his (videoed) self-indulgence was significant, luckily offset by  our refusal to pay the original company's final bill.

However, the real cost of his behaviour is now most evident in delayed scheduling: for example windows needing to be placed in store. If those costs become significant, we will have to re-assess other cost headings. And consider litigation.

 

None of the above should be seen as a criticism of the Durisol build system.  In fact, if anything, it points to it's flexibility. We are not in the slightest worried about a collapse or or the effect of trees falling on the house shell. We'll cured concrete that's full of rebar stands up well to a bit of weather and rotten timber pruned by the odd gale. Other houses in the process of being built locally have suffered significant wind damage

 

 

[jamiehamy]

I'm baffled that Durisol say it doesn't need bracing. That's the very reason your gable collapsed Ian. I think that statement is a but irresponsible tbh. Until the concrete is poured and cured, any icf wall us inherently unstable. Weather is unpredictable for a start but I'm unsure how walls stay plumb without bracing. When the concrete goes in, there's a massive weight there to move things about. 

 

We poured our walls in one pour and there is not a chance we could have done that without bracing. It would have been highly dangerous. Happy to hear how Durisol is different? 

[ToughButterCup]

4 minutes ago, jamiehamy said:

I'm baffled that Durisol say it doesn't need bracing. That's the very reason your gable collapsed Ian[...]

 

No, @jamiehamy, it isn't : heres why....

 

The wall was 'empty' (awaiting pour) at the time of the gale . Apart from the already-poured sections, all the rest of the build was empty at the same time.  Only the east wall, the one that faced the gale, fell down. All the other walls, similarly empty and awaiting concrete were unaffected by the same gale.

 

In the ensuing hoo-ha, there were those that said 'Told ya, it needs bracing!' , and those (us) who said

• if the contractor had not just up-sticks and left without  notice for three weeks and poured when he said he would
• if there had not been an exceptionally turbulent easterly Gale in early July

then the whole lot could have stood quietly awaiting concrete and  we would have been fine. The criminally idiotic behaviour only occurred during the first re-build.

Yes, the east wall has been re-built twice. Once by the oaf and his mates who, after the gale,  were  too lazy to take every block down and rebuild it carefully, and then again by Durisol.

The only reason we put up shuttering on the East wall, was  just in case the oaf had similarly abused blocks off camera and we hadn't seen him.

 

 

 

[jamiehamy]

okay, I'll agree to disagree with you on this. 

 

1 - It's of little consequence that the contractor 'up sticks' - pours could have been delayed for any number of reasons at all during the course of a build - weather, illness, design issues, money, concrete (pump) availability etc etc..

 

2 - Whether weather was 'exceptionally turbulent' again - is neither here nor there. Abnormal weather happens - whilst you can't prepare for everything, leaving a gable wall so vulnerable is not a good idea. I've stated here before as an example when extreme wind that comes down the glen when a warm easterly arrives after a cold spell - the warm air comes over the hills and drawn down ever faster into the glen by the cool air

 

Bracing offers many advantages before and during pour - not only from a construction perspective, but from a safety perspective so I'll leave my input here for @Luckyladto consider when weighing up different ICF systems.