Paying on the spot : why I shouldn't.

[ToughButterCup]

Way back when I cleaned windows to pay my way round my first degree. After a year or two, things were going well. I was beginning to get a lot of top-end customers; including the landed gentry from West Oxfordshire. Think of the biggest, famous estates with big open parkland: the kind of place that you can visit and get lost on the estate. We did parts of his pad, and all his family's local houses. Tucked away, out of sight, pieds a terre with interesting architecture and decor. Very very interesting. 

 

A couple of times a year, I'd pop into the estate office and get paid. One year, however, I met His Grace at his (what I called) Passion Pad. and since I needed to be paid, I asked him to pay the bill.

 

I told him how much. He pulled a roll of £20 notes from his back pocket, counted out about half of what I'd asked for, and told me he'd owe me the rest. I won't repeat what I said. That's beside the point.

 

The next customer was the Lord Lieutenants house. Super bloke: one of the best. He sensed instantly that I was furious. So I told him what had happened.

 

"He's frightened you won't come back, Ian".

 

I have  recently paid two trades folk in full as soon as the job was done. Between them, they've agreed to do another  few grand's worth of work. Months ago.

 

I'm frightened they won't come back.  Should'a learned my lesson from all those years ago eh?  

[Ferdinand]

Did you get Bob Maxwell at Headington Hall?

[nod]

25 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said:

Way back when I cleaned windows to pay my way round my first degree. After a year or two, things were going well. I was beginning to get a lot of top-end customers; including the landed gentry from West Oxfordshire. Think of the biggest, famous estates with big open parkland: the kind of place that you can visit and get lost on the estate. We did parts of his pad, and all his family's local houses. Tucked away, out of sight, pieds a terre with interesting architecture and decor. Very very interesting. 

 

A couple of times a year, I'd pop into the estate office and get paid. One year, however, I met His Grace at his (what I called) Passion Pad. and since I needed to be paid, I asked him to pay the bill.

 

I told him how much. He pulled a roll of £20 notes from his back pocket, counted out about half of what I'd asked for, and told me he'd owe me the rest. I won't repeat what I said. That's beside the point.

 

The next customer was the Lord Lieutenants house. Super bloke: one of the best. He sensed instantly that I was furious. So I told him what had happened.

 

"He's frightened you won't come back, Ian".

 

I have  recently paid two trades folk in full as soon as the job was done. Between them, they've agreed to do another  few grand's worth of work. Months ago.

 

I'm frightened they won't come back.  Should'a learned my lesson from all those years ago eh?  

Not good Ian

Im on thirty days with two weeks grace 

I would be made up to get paid straight away 

[ToughButterCup]

4 hours ago, Ferdinand said:

Did you get Bob Maxwell at Headington Hall?

 

No, perish the thought: closer  to a major war victory.  And war Prime Minister. And drug-addict wayward scion.  

[ToughButterCup]

4 hours ago, nod said:

Not good Ian[...]

 

@nod. honorable, decent blokes  like you are increasingly  rare.

[vivienz]

I don't want to get personal, Ian, but why have you gone all wonky?  Your posts are displaying as though they've shifted over and gone out of alignment; nobody else's, just yours.  Or have I got a case of selective wonkiness?

[dpmiller]

no, he looks wonky from here too.

[ToughButterCup]

Wonky?  Me ? Moi?

Probably.

[vivienz]

Mais, oui, très wonky, mon brave!

[Ferdinand]

He looks OK from here, except for a missing Avatar.

 

Could someone post up a pic of the offending wonkiness?

 

Wonk .. yes. Wonky ... hmmm.

 

Ferdinand

 

 

Edited February 20, 2018 by Ferdinand

[PeterW]

I pay promptly - and still get people back. I’m also flexible on trades taking days off so this week I’m down 2 days but that means I can catch up on some other jobs before the plasterer is back. 

 

Maybe I’m lucky ..??

[Construction Channel]

do you offer hot beverages?

they make a big difference

[Jeremy Harris]

24 minutes ago, PeterW said:

I pay promptly - and still get people back. I’m also flexible on trades taking days off so this week I’m down 2 days but that means I can catch up on some other jobs before the plasterer is back. 

 

Maybe I’m lucky ..??

 

I also paid promptly, and offered stage payments to one or two of the best guys didn't ask for them, but were clearly grateful to get some cash part way through the job.

 

I'm inclined to think that availability may be the reason for guys not showing up.  We noticed a marked change between the start of our build, when guys would turn up pretty quickly, and the end, when they had to put  us off for weeks, due to a surge in the local demand.

[ToughButterCup]

OK Ferdi ?

Anyone else got a view? Do your worst

 

[ToughButterCup]

6 minutes ago, JSHarris said:

[...]

I'm inclined to think that availability may be the reason for guys not showing up. 

 

That the kind interpretation.

Debbie agrees with you. Thing is, trades get the bulk of their repeat business from farmers round here.  Hence the  availability issue.

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, recoveringacademic said:

Anyone else got a view? Do your worst

 

Fwiw, I absolutely HATE having customers 'dangle carrots' like that, it makes my blood boil. And its usually the ones who can afford to pay and think they have the upper hand. Thats usually where I nod my head like a good little boy, and then shove another 20% on the bill for "wanker tax". 

A previous customer had me pay for some trinkets, only £60-70 worth, but I took the money our of my pocket to buy them whilst the customers were on a luxury holiday. At the end of the job ( and them agreeing the job was way beyond their expectations ) I asked for the money and had to give chapter and verse to get the amount AGREED, not paid. 3 months later I get a call from said customer....could I go back and explain how to hook up the sky cables I ran for a song whilst the ceilings were down.....so along I pop. Deed done, and on the doorstep, I turn and politely say "could you transfer that £x materials money for me please?"....."we'll see" came the reply. I left. 

Another month or so went by. I get a call...."X item you fitted has stopped working, could you come out and fix it please?"......I replied "We'll see"....and the line went quiet.

I made that person wait 3 months, with them ringing to voicemail and texts going unanswered, until I went to do the repair. Of course, one of the terms of my return was to have the outstanding money in my account FIRST. At that point I think the penny dropped. They asked for some more 'favours' whilst I was there, but I just said I was late for another appointment and thought F.U.

Moral of the story.....Stump up when the bills due, end of chat.  Anything else is a massive piss-take. 

 

If you want a retainer, state that thrice UP-FRONT before a single screw has been turned. 

 

There, I did my worst.   

 

[vivienz]

I think it's just plain wrong not to pay on time.  OH and I run a (very) small manufacturing company and it generally seems that there is a directly proportional relationship between the size/wealth of the customer and the amount they mess around with paying.  Some are just hopelessly bound up in their own over complicated systems (we had to chase ICI for invoices that were over 2 years old.  Yes, years) but others are arrogant and unpleasant.  The fact is that we have already had to shell out for raw materials, wages, energy bills, courier charges and probably more just to get the goods to the customer.  For them to then take additional time to pay on already generous credit terms is unbelievable annoying.  Trades also have their own bills to pay and it's no different.  If you owe someone money, pay them.

[Jeremy Harris]

Try getting paid by insurance companies..................

 

I now request a retainer up front, as they are so bad at paying.  On average I'd guess most pay up within about 6 months of me submitting an invoice, some have taken well over a year, and none have ever paid up in less than 3 months, even though my contract and the invoice states clearly that payment is to be within 30 days.

[ProDave]

I have probably mentioned this before but I stopped doing work for a care home because it always took 4 months to get paid.

 

The explanation was: At the end of month 1, the home send the invoice to head office. At the end of month 2, head office forward it to accounts. At the end of month 3, accounts schedule  it for payment, and at the end of month 4 it actually gets paid.  And they seemed to think this was normal and acceptable.

[Ferdinand]

On 20/02/2018 at 21:30, recoveringacademic said:

OK Ferdi ?

Anyone else got a view? Do your worst

 

 

MIssed this. Worst, you say? OK.

 

There was an ex-Prof with a newt

Who's need for a home was acute

So he flew in from thither

And built his house hither

Post an aerial survey of newts

 

Or was that supposed to be on topic comment?

Edited February 22, 2018 by Ferdinand

[Ferdinand]

ON topic .

 

I think prompt payment is important, ideally on the day or in the week the invoice arrives. it is also about making commitments and not keeping them (I am quite good at getting that wrong sometimes). That is perhaps the best way of making sure they are willing to come back, combined with being knowledgeable enough not to ask the wrong questions and letting them get on with the job after a thorough briefing.

 

It can be a tricky balance, and if the supplier is not on the ball I am capable of losing things in my own system (*) ...  

particularly if the invoice comes via an unusual route. I have a couple of occasional suppliers who are not good at issuing or chasing up invoices even when requested.

 

I have said before that means of effective communication seems to vary. I know one tradesman who never seems to reply to phone messages but is currently very responsive to emails because he has a new website and is getting enquiries that way. I tend to be better at responding to text messages if it is a routine request because they are a 'push' method and do not expire like voicemails, so I will find them when I next use the mobile.

 

I am perhaps slightly different to some others here in that most of my stuff offers the potential for repeat business as I renovate houses and have paid maintenance done every year. Eg somebody who does kitchens or double glazing can reasonably expect several thousands of business each year, which while smaller than some of the big £10k to £50k ticket items discussed here is a regular few days work once or twice a year.

 

I struggle sometimes with finding people for emergencies, as Tenants rightly have expectations for speed of response for important Items ... e.g. last November I had a boiler condemned and disconnected on the spot at the annual inspection and all gas was disconnected when the weather was cold (= no heating OR hot water) and ended up resorting to a Tradesmen site to find an engineer. Could have been VERY expensive as quotes were between £1900 and £4800 for a simple boiler swap at short notice. IN a note for @newhome it turned out that the existing system had been incorrectly installed in 2010 or so, and the roomstats were all not controlling anything at all (it is not just you) as the project had been in chaos when dad was caught by cancer.

 

I very very rarely pay "cash" outside the system, even when offered. Even leaving the principle aside, in my case it is mainly business not personal so both parties can be better off anyway ... I get to count the maintenance cost against tax, and the tradesman may have a lower tax rate than me and be better off with the higher rate of payment.

 

This area is quite heavy with people offering to work for cash at low rates, some of whom are quite good, and some of whom are unreliable or not very good. IT is quite possible to find middle aged people at under minimum wage if you are unscrupulous.

 

I occasionally barter, most recently with a new Tenant wanting a rent-free first month because their previous landlord's agent was playing silly buggers with returning an appropriately large amount of the deposit on the previous house they had lived in, in a desire for a new lawn where the dog had scuffed one corner. 

 

Ferdinand

 

* If I am not being efficient my desk works like a slow speed auto-Rolodex, with things rotating to the top once every few weeks.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited February 22, 2018 by Ferdinand

[ToughButterCup]

13 hours ago, vivienz said:

I think it's just plain wrong not to pay on time.  [...]

 

I couldn't agree more.

 

But @vivienz how would you solve the problem of the Attention Deficit Disorder suffered by those trades folk who, once paid on time  simply refuse to be contacted? Or when eventually contact is made, and a start date agreed, don't turn up.

And when met by accident in the local supermarket tell bare-faced lies about turning up to do £1300 worth of follow up work '...on Monday...'

 

Everyone has scheduling problems. Everyone. 

But it seems the emotional maturity necessary to face talking to customers about low-level job-juggling is rare  for some in the building sector.

 

My argument is that with the 90% of decent trades folk, paying on time is 'right' . But for those whose personal standards allow them to simply ignore a customer mid way in a job with two phases (supply and then fix), then not paying is the last resort.

 

It's the only thing that would hold (in this case)  his attention.

[Bitpipe]

Any trade I have on a day rate gets paid on the nail, I'll give them cash in hand for out of pocket expenses (on presentation of a vat receipt) and money into their business account for the work done. 

 

For merchants etc, I'll only settle a bill when I have a correct VAT invoice in hand as once you've paid up it's near impossible to get their attention to fix paperwork. 

 

My landscaper (who is joining the Hotel California set of trades who seem to be here perpetually) has some tales of clients offering to pay half now and half in 6 months 'in case there are problems'. His challenge is that there are a lot of cowboys in his game so clients are wary of shoddy work. 

[Jeremy Harris]

I suppose one question to ask is "Why won't someone I've used before come back promptly when I want more work done?"

 

I've suffered from this a lot with our landscaping guy, his "order book" seems to always be full for at least three or four months ahead, which is a blasted nuisance when you are trying to get tree planting done during the dormant season (I've just given a job to a new chap because of this).  Likewise with the plasterers we used and a brickie, they all seem booked up months in advance.

 

I've always paid up promptly, often as not on the day they've finished a job.  I've done all the usual polite stuff, like make lots of tea, have a tin of biscuits on hand, etc, and have got on really well with all of them.  As mentioned earlier, I think it's just that around here building work has picked up massively since four or five years ago, and they would rather have big jobs than small ones.  Most self-builds probably aren't seen as being that attractive, perhaps, offering just a week or two's work, whereas the big boys are hiring guys for maybe three or four months work at a time.

[vivienz]

52 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said:

 

I couldn't agree more.

 

But @vivienz how would you solve the problem of the Attention Deficit Disorder suffered by those trades folk who, once paid on time  simply refuse to be contacted? Or when eventually contact is made, and a start date agreed, don't turn up.

And when met by accident in the local supermarket tell bare-faced lies about turning up to do £1300 worth of follow up work '...on Monday...'

 

Everyone has scheduling problems. Everyone. 

But it seems the emotional maturity necessary to face talking to customers about low-level job-juggling is rare  for some in the building sector.

 

My argument is that with the 90% of decent trades folk, paying on time is 'right' . But for those whose personal standards allow them to simply ignore a customer mid way in a job with two phases (supply and then fix), then not paying is the last resort.

 

It's the only thing that would hold (in this case)  his attention.

 

I understand your frustration and I'm sure that I will encounter plenty of it myself over the coming months.  Unfortunately, though, much as we would like to exert absolute control over some things, it just isnt possible all the time and accepting that some trades/customers/third parties, etc., can be annoying isn't a good reason to lower one's own standards, as tempting as it might be.  If I'm going to be let down anyway, I would prefer to have my own reputation as a good customer intact so that I can try and get other tradespeople in.

Edited February 22, 2018 by vivienz
missing reply. duh.