Own tools on day rate?

[flanagaj]

If you are paying trades on day rate, should they be expected to bring their own equipment?  Eg, should a groundworker bring their own laser level and if so, should you expect to be charged hire or should this be in their day rate.  I've got a good laser level and all my own equipment, but I really don't want other people using it.   

Edited 15 hours ago by flanagaj

[Oz07]

Massively depends. A subby bricky may or may not supply a mixer likewise a laser too. Don't discount someone just because they don't supply these things they may be a skilled tradesman. 

Now if they start saying they haven't got a trowel or a level that's when you've got to worry. 

Not sure why but joiners usually supply everything they would need and are usually anal about their kit 

[-rick-]

6 minutes ago, Oz07 said:

Not sure why but joiners usually supply everything they would need and are usually anal about their kit 

 

Where precision/accuracy/sharpness matters people want to use things that they are comfortable with.

[JohnMo]

All our trades supplied their own tools, they were responsible for accuracy. If they were after additional costs for tool hire - bye bye, would find a different company.

 

1 hour ago, flanagaj said:

should a groundworker bring their own laser level and if so, should you expect to be charged hire or should this be in their day rate

Yes, and the digger and everything else they need. I would expect the basis of the scope to be fully coated and an agreed fixed cost.

[Nickfromwales]

2 hours ago, flanagaj said:

If you are paying trades on day rate, should they be expected to bring their own equipment?  Eg, should a groundworker bring their own laser level and if so, should you expect to be charged hire or should this be in their day rate.  I've got a good laser level and all my own equipment, but I really don't want other people using it.   

Edited 2 hours ago by flanagaj

OK. What's provoked the question? Have you been asked / told to provide anything, or is this a 'pre-worry' only?

 

Most trades salivate over a splendid tool collection, with most having all available gadgets that save them time / money and max profitability.

 

If they ask you for plant, like heavy SDS max breakers or petrol disc cutters (and blades) then this is perfectly normal. Festoon lighting, a 100v transformer and leads etc, plus first aid and eyewash stations is down to you. You'll be expected to offer some oil for the cogs, but not to feed and burp them.

 

Read the small print in quotes; if there isn't any then ask why.

[flanagaj]

39 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

OK. What's provoked the question? Have you been asked / told to provide anything, or is this a 'pre-worry' only?

 

Most trades salivate over a splendid tool collection, with most having all available gadgets that save them time / money and max profitability.

 

If they ask you for plant, like heavy SDS max breakers or petrol disc cutters (and blades) then this is perfectly normal. Festoon lighting, a 100v transformer and leads etc, plus first aid and eyewash stations is down to you. You'll be expected to offer some oil for the cogs, but not to feed and burp them.

 

Read the small print in quotes; if there isn't any then ask why.

I used a groundworker recently and he didn't bring any tools.  He and his labourer were constantly asking if they could use this and that.  So many of tools ended up covered in mud.  In the end I did say "do you not have your own tools".   It's a conversation that I shouldn't need to have.

[Gus Potter]

4 hours ago, flanagaj said:

If you are paying trades on day rate, should they be expected to bring their own equipment?  Eg, should a groundworker bring their own laser level and if so, should you expect to be charged hire or should this be in their day rate.  I've got a good laser level and all my own equipment, but I really don't want other people using it.

The question I ask is are you paying cash in hand? 

 

Now we are all adults and know if you do this then there is a risk attached and you know you are winging it and you have to take the extra associated risk. It's not just the tax man, it's the fact that if they cock it up you will have to pay to demolish, buy new materails, the delay, the hurt you'l  have to go through when you reralise you have been ripped off. 

 

That is the big boys / girls world. You can mitigate by standing over folk all day long and if you do that then you lose time / income so why not pay a little extra? I've said this many times before but quote Ruskin.

 

“It's unwise to pay too much, but it's worse to pay too little. When you pay too much, you lose a little money - that's all. When you pay
too little, you sometimes lose everything, because the thing you bought was incapable of doing the thing it was bought to do. The
common law of business balance prohibits paying a little and getting a lot - it can't be done. If you deal with the lowest bidder, it is well
to add something for the risk you run, and if you do that you will have enough to pay for something better.”

 

Now in mitigation there is are still a FEW folk that just do work on a labout only basis, they do a good job. But unless you are an experience self builder then it's NOT for you! 

 

Maybe the easiest way to explain this is to put yourself in the position of a Dad / Mum that runs a building business and wants to hand that down to your kids. I have on my tender list a builder who's daughter is on the tools at the moment and he is wanting to pass the business onto her. She works her arse off, the reality is that she is not as physically as strong as the men.. but she has a great brain. We often have discussion around how much profit you need to add onto the basic labour cost to make a small buiulding business wash it's face.. it's around 40 - 50% just to keep the show on the road. 

 

Now this Contractor is not special.. I do get on well with him. I like him personally as he is honest, will fix his mistakes. but business is business and I'm not here for him.. I'm here to represent my Clinets. 

4 hours ago, flanagaj said:

should they be expected to bring their own equipment?

It's time for you to have an open and honest convesation with the folk you are dealing with. The labour only market is very much tough love. There are suggestion from other members about expectations.. have none.. you need to grow a big pair of balls! 

 

You have two choices.. get down and dirty with the dogs, maybe catch fleas or pay a bit more. To be blunt I suspect you are playing with the dogs and they are going to pull your trousers down.

 

Now on the upside.. there are Contractors that may say to you.. we will pitch up.. get you out the hole for now.. we will charge you bit more . but be fair with you. They know they will get the rest of the build. I work with Contractors like this.. they know it's in their long term interests. 

 

The funny thing is. I have a list of Contractors on my tender list. The great thing for them is that as a desinger I get to meet the Client first.. I do some design.. I get to stress test my Clients.. if I smell shite then no way will I put the builders that I trust and who trust me to be fair and impartial at risk from a dodgy Client.. 

 

 

 

 

 

[saveasteading]

11 hours ago, flanagaj said:

So many of tools ended up covered in mud.  

 

Worse is cement and concrete. There's a barrow on site  with a lot of concrete in it and collapsed against the wheel.

It wasn't my lovely barrow fortunately but it seems to be mine now, to get rid of.

Subbies will nearly always look after their own stuff better than yours. They will request plant that they wouldn't hire themselves, and better than they need. Then they will let the use, and hire, drift.

 

BUT sometimes the right kit will do in minutes what will take hours without.

 

What do you want, why, and for how long?

Then you manage its use and condition.