Low points: and how to get out of them

[SteamyTea]

5 minutes ago, SimonD said:

I'm sorry but I have to push back on this and refine it a little

May have to get back to you on this when I get home. But yes, the environment (as Einstein said 'it is everything but me') does have an effect, but one can change how one looks and deals with it.

 

Today's Saturday Live had a bit about the power of doing nothing.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m002qrb4

 

[Onoff]

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

When I visited, I thought of asking to see it.

But decided you and your family were too nice and kind to hear me laughing. Would have been rude.

 

Was it you who shat on the drive that day?

[SimonD]

8 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

May have to get back to you on this when I get home. But yes, the environment (as Einstein said 'it is everything but me') does have an effect, but one can change how one looks and deals with it.

 

Today's Saturday Live had a bit about the power of doing nothing.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/m002qrb4

 

 

I probably know more than most on the power of doing nothing. I've been a teacher of Tai Chi for over 10 years and my Master's research project in psychological coaching was about importing and integrating core aspects of Chinese philosophy into Western psychological models of adult learning and development. The research was applied so I had real world participants and measures of success - my superviser encouraged me to take that work to a PHD but children and other things at the time meant I didn't have the time or capacity. maybe in the future.

 

Embedded in Chinese philosophy and Daoism (not the religion but the classical philosophy) is the concept of doing nothing of course. But this is often misunderstood because it doesn't actually mean doing nothing, it means doing as little as possible as efficiently as possibly - or in more Chinese terms, to find a path of action in a situation with the least effort. And like with all things it's a process that has to be learned and part of the learning process is doing too much until you finally have the realisation you can do much less. So very much consistent with what I said earlier. Like the Tai Chi masters I've been taught by, where of course doing nothing is a central principle, they keep reminding you that to master Tai Chi you have to 'eat bitter' - it's really tough work, despite doing nothing 😉

[SteamyTea]

18 minutes ago, Onoff said:

 

Was it you who shat on the drive that day?

Yes, and I call around every other evening to do the same.

Thankfully @Pocster is paying for it though his livestream video channel.

[-rick-]

2 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Yes, and I call around every other evening to do the same.

 

Is this why @Onoff put so much effort into his gate?

[SteamyTea]

5 minutes ago, SimonD said:

means doing as little as possible as efficiently as possibly

Almost the same as production engineering. Then we sum it all up.

Think those drug cheating cyclists did the same, they called it marginal gains.

[SteamyTea]

Just now, -rick- said:

 

Is this why @Onoff put so much effort into his gate?

I wee into the box of wires.

[SimonD]

58 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Almost the same as production engineering. Then we sum it all up.

Think those drug cheating cyclists did the same, they called it marginal gains.

 

Yeah, that's about it. But from your science and engineering perspective, one of the classical models in Chinese thought from about 2500 years ago, which has been classified by complexity theory scientists amongst others, is a proto-scientific systems theory. It's got a lot in it that mirrors modern production and distribution approaches, but with one key different that we've tended to overlook/abandon - and that's the importance of redundancy.

[SteamyTea]

15 minutes ago, SimonD said:

and that's the importance of redundancy

As in a back up system, rather than an extra, unneeded system?

[ToughButterCup]

So far we've dealt with part of the thread title: Low points, and suggested ways of moving on. 

 

But there's more to it.

 

Forgiving yourself.

 

@Onoff hints at the issue earlier. We've all got fookoops , - hidden from view from others or not - which still get to us : sometimes years after the deed is fookedoop.

 

You've all heard

"Nobody knows, nobody knows" 

 

And a little voice in our heads say

"I bloody well do"

 

Get out of that without squirming. 

 

Any suggestions as to how - when some bloody annoyingness on your build stares you in the face years after the fact - how to let it go. Make it die. ? 

[SimonD]

10 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

As in a back up system, rather than an extra, unneeded system?

 

Backups not unneeded extra systems. Back then it was about the effective management and distribution of resources that nurture the healthy function of a system - so that it's harmonious and balanced - across cycles of excess and deficiency. So water, for example requires appropriate storage as well as managed consumption to maintain consistent supplies across both individual and several seasons - what's appropriate is obviously governed by the wider context and environment.

 

It's been refined and still remains one of the central models used to simultaneously guide both diagnosis and treatment in Chinese medicine.  It's even been used over the centuries in the structure and function of government and society.

 

[SimonD]

52 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

You've all heard

"Nobody knows, nobody knows" 

 

And a little voice in our heads say

"I bloody well do"

 

Get out of that without squirming. 

 

Oh, yeah. Gets me all the time. I'm so glad this thread is here to expose the shared experiences 😄

 

52 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

Any suggestions as to how - when some bloody annoyingness on your build stares you in the face years after the fact - how to let it go. Make it die. ? 

 

Here' my two pennies worth which is influenced by my working with people psychologically and teaching my Tai Chi classes, but also from how I'm at ease with my mistakes building (well, apart from one - see below) - I actually appreciate them because of what they represent.

 

1. Don't try to make it die. The first step here is to embrace the f**k up, and do it in a compassionate way.

 

2. look at the self-build process as a learning process not at the outcomes.

I get this every week in my Tai Chi classes when students tell me they're afraid to practise at home in case they get it wrong and build bad habits. So I first ask them if they intend to build bad habits and they answer 'no.' Great start. Second is that I then explain that there is absolutely no way you can get something right first time if you've never done it before and to get it right you have to do it wrong many times, sometimes 1000s of times, if not more. I never tell my students they got it wrong, I just guide them towards improving.

 

Learning is about getting it wrong. You need to remind yourself about this over and over. I see stuff in my house and then just ask myself if I did my best at the time and have I learned from it. If the answer is yes to both, that's a great help. It sits much nicer for me and is comforting.

 

The only time I can't get over it is when I see some stuff from a disastrous period when I got a couple of people in to help me - paid trades - and they cocked up. I still look at those bits and wish I'd done that myself, because even if I cocked up I did it with my best intentions! But with time they're dissappearing into the unseen background

 

The important thing here is not to be narrow in your consideration of what you learned. This isn't just about learning a technique or build method, it's about whether you learned to make better decisions, learned to ask for help when you needed it, learned to be more self-sufficient, learned to be more self-confident. It can be learning about anything related to your experience.

 

3. Learn to think about whether what you've done is good enough, not perfect.

 

For me there are some Asian cultures that produce very high quality goods and appear to be perfect in many ways in what they produce. Now we all know they're not. But one thing that they all have inherent in their culture is to never seek perfection, or in some countries seek perfection fully in the knowledge you'll never achieve it. And also they purposefully leave something unfinished (a minor unfinished bit that most people won't see, but the make will!)

 

The reasons they take this approach is because nature is never perfect and it is still unfinished, and why go against nature. Instead look at creating overall harmony.

 

4. Time is a great healer. Get on with what's next in life and eventually those mistakes will fall away in importance

 

5. If you're questioning decisions you made that turned out wrong, stop to remind yourself that you were, literally a different person with different information to hand when you made the decision. You're now someone completely different with new knowledge and experience so you have no place to be going back to give the earlier you a hard time for those decisions. Again, go back to reflecting on what you learned and what you got out of the experience. And if you've got some interest, wonder how it will support you going forwards.

 

Maybe some of this helps...  

Edited 20 hours ago by SimonD

[Onoff]

2 hours ago, SimonD said:

Tai Chi

 

Do you know Willie Lim?

[MikeSharp01]

40 minutes ago, SimonD said:

 

Learning is about getting it wrong.

Those who don't make mistakes never made anything.

[SimonD]

58 minutes ago, Onoff said:

 

Do you know Willie Lim?

 

I know the name, but I have never met him. For the last 18,19, or 20 years or whatever it is now, I've been firmly embedded in the Chen-style lineage of Chen Xiaowang.

[BotusBuild]

3 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

Any suggestions as to how - when some bloody annoyingness on your build stares you in the face years after the fact - how to let it go. Make it die. ?

Differing levels of annoyance require different responses. 

Severe annoyance, for me, means remove and replace or whatever will correct it to my satisfaction.

Anything else is dealt with by the phrase "it is what it is" which kind of sums up some of things @SimonD states more eloquently above.

 

In summary - fix only that which you can at reasonable personal and/or financial cost. Everything else is a lesson learned. 

 

FYI - the phrase comes from someone who worked for me many years ago. He used this phrase in daily worklife to describe situations that were not fixable or in some cases would cost far too much (time/money) to put right, but in themselves were not terminal, unlike his final medical diagnosis, at which point his phrase hit me square in the face! I now use it at appropriate times to remove stress from my life.

[Gus Potter]

On 30/01/2026 at 11:36, jack said:

We don't need more funds. When we run low, we ask for donations, and generally that gets us what we need to cover costs. All BH staff are unpaid volunteers and that won't change.

 

"New blood" isn't needed imo, but we don't have the advantage of lifelong endeavours like farming, gardening, or photography in terms of keeping members engaged over long periods of time. Many of our members join, hang around until their build is finished, then we never see them again (obviously for some *cough* @Pocster *cough that time could be measured in decades).

 

Over time, there'll occasionally be the need for a new mod or administrator, but we've handled that as needed. Most of the current staff have been here for many years and have no intention of going anywhere.  

 

I don't know why you think BH dropping down the rankings suggests we'd be trying to sell it. I can categorically state that there's not even the hint of a glint of an idea to sell. We have no income other than donations. I suppose someone could take over and try to monetise the site, but I don't think there's a lot of money in forums any more, plus any potential buyer would have to know that they'd lose a lot of the membership if they added advertising, sponsorship, or membership fees. I agree that the info in the site is of limited value, especially given it's publicly available to all.

Hi Jack.

 

Thank's for taking time to examine my text. 

 

"All BH staff are unpaid volunteers and that won't change." Great news to me and delighted to hear that.

 

"Many of our members join, hang around until their build is finished, then we never see them again" But that surely is the nature of the beast. It only takes a few to hang around out of the thousands of members to keep things current and BH "living".

 

"Over time, there'll occasionally be the need for a new mod or administrator, but we've handled that as needed. Most of the current staff have been here for many years and have no intention of going anywhere."   This is also great news, not least as life experience counts for a lot as does continuity.. and don't take this the wrong way mods, grandfathers rights, skipping a generation and trying to reinvent the wheel often leads to problems. 

 

"I don't know why you think BH dropping down the rankings suggests we'd be trying to sell it."  Ah I may have had my commercial hat on a bit squint! But I recollect that I was prompted by the drive to get onto the first page of the rankings and that is important if you want to position for selling an online platfrom. It just raised a flag at my end. 

 

"I can categorically state that there's not even the hint of a glint of an idea to sell. We have no income other than donations."  Music to my ears as it will be to many others and I'm please to hear that my "water" has in this case been ok after all and my concern unfounded. 

 

We have no income other than donations.  Many organisations would give their back teeth to be in a place like this. My only comment is that I think there was a donation tab, tried to find it @AliG. When joined BH I learnt loads, still do. I can see that the forum must be saving folks piles of cash at times and just think, I'll just send as a spontaneous gesture £50 quid as a thanks. 

 

Anyway to finish. Thanks Jack and to all the mods for all your hard work. 

[ToughButterCup]

"It is what it is"

 

Being generous with oneself is for many - me included - not easy. 

 

We self-builders 'see' so much more detail than we did before our build. The skill (curse?) extends to looking at other buildings - houses especially so. To me it's quite strange that I'm prepared to be more generous in my judgement about A N Other build than I am about my own. A lintel not quite right, a gate that doesn't close and latch itself easily.....

 

Maybe I need to grow up. 

[BotusBuild]

I have a perfection streak (maybe OCD) like many "hands on" self builders, and I hear what you're saying, Ian, about being less lenient with your own work than others.

 

I think we see more detail because we did the work ourselves. Could we have done better at the time, with the right tools, and maybe more time? Now we may have done the same thing multiple times, and through experience got better, sure, we know that first one is not as good as it could be. If you can fix the "bad" one, go for it. If not, accept it as a lesson learned.

 

Has my perfection streak disappeared? Absolutely not, and I'm still fooking it up every so often.

 

Ian, be kind to yourself. What you've achieved overall with your selfbuild is monumental. You know this to be true. Try to put the little things in context against that, one little thing at a time.

 

Hope this helps you a tiny bit

[Oz07]

No excuse for bad work but I learnt young you can mess something up trying to get a good job perfect. There's a couple of sayings with the same message. 

[Gus Potter]

3 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

"It is what it is"

To post this was a great idea. I've been browsing through the responses and made an earlier post myself. Collectively can you all take a like as a given from me.

 

This has prompted me to write the following, partly in the context of what it looks like from a designer's perspective. I'll try and link this with what @ToughButterCup and all are discussing.

 

As a quick refresh of my background. I did a selfbuild in my 30's, really got up every day in the country and built a bit of the house, three years later it was nearly finished, we moved in. Folk stopped by and said.. would you do my house next, I built a business in the Scottish Border area as a building contractor. When about 40 my wife and I parted and with that went the house we had built together, achieved our dream. My German Shephard dog died.. I sold up and went to uni to become an Engineer. Now 20 years later I'm an SE and Architectural designer. Lots of my work is domestic work. 

 

The key thing is that doing what I do now means that I'm often involved at the start of the Client's journey, there is cash in the bank and even when having a battle with the planners.. things still generally look ok. 

 

If I was to make a quick and not comprehensive list of the things that go wrong on a self build or say a house extension these would be.. I've tried to order them a bit.

 

1/ Money, lack of allowing for contingency.

 

2/ Designers not producing enough information that protects the Client which they often use to enter into some form of contract. Few domestic Client's want to pay for a formal recognised industry contract. They get swayed by the builder to entering into something that often leads to trouble later. 

 

Designers should be able to assess to some extent the Client's unspoken needs. Even if this risks losing the brief! What I'm saying is that everyone involved in a project has a duty of care and that now starts right at the beginning of the design process, before this was much less the case. 

 

3/ Builders just being themselves, often inexperienced, making pricing mistakes, can bankrupt them and then they need to claw that money back by throwing the Client under the bus. 

 

4/ To get to the point where you want to build something as a Client you have probably got the where with all to get some cash together, maybe have some building experience. This ius a good step forward.

 

I can tell you I have been doing this for 40 years and the scary thing is that the more you learn the more you realise what you don't know! A Client who is obstinate / does not listen to the evidence or discuss the advice you are giving in an open and collegiate way is often in  trouble. A stubborn Client can be their own worst enemy! 

3 hours ago, BotusBuild said:

I have a perfection streak (maybe OCD) like many "hands on" self builders,

I just picked out this. OCD is fine, if managed. I have day job, that is a hobby as an SE, and attention to detail, not good at spelling. I have a number of Client's fthat many would run a mile from. They put me under scrutiny, can be horribly blunt, sometimes offensive at the outset. I don't have a problem with this as I can see that they are paying my wages and it's my job to walk them through the design, discuss and so on. 

 

Now that all seems a bit forensic but when you talk about the design often other things come out of the mix. What the underlying issues are come to the surface, do they feel down? We take about these and then come back to the design things with a fresh approach.

 

Many Clients are professional in their own work life but seem to lose the plot when they have to move out their comfort zone, even the language use is different. My own view is that it's my job to make sure a Client is assisted in this. That said I do some steel connection desing for commercial steel fabricators, most have their heads so far up thier own arses, gods gift it's unbelievable. And the cheaky buggers want to pay in 90 - 120 daysdays! I've pretty much given up on them for now.. until they go bust and young folk pick up their crumbs. 

 

Some self builders take the view they are the hardest ass on the planet, bad news, but these are not the majority.

 

Most I meet are timid, cautious,  know thye need help but just don't knopw how to ask, they have their ducks in a row, often very thoughtful, intelligent and need someone to say.. your idea is sound and here is why as a professional I think your idea is sound. My job is then to say.. here is how we are going to design (the drawings, SE calcs) , cost, tender and navigate the build. 

 

A quick story. I had a husband an wife Client who were both SE's, one worked in oil and gas, one on Naval ships. Their job needed a lot of steels, which they did as a day job, in their sleep. But they did not have the contacts, experience to translate that into a domestic setting. My brief was.. you do the donkey work Gus, get the approvals, sort the ventilation, the electrics, the timber design etc and we will check your stuff. It all worked out. 

 

5/ Planning an executing an extension can take say 18 months, a house much longer. Life often changes in that time.

 

3 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

Maybe I need to grow up. 

You are doing yourself a disservice. I'll take that as retorical for discussion. 

 

This next part is to do with why we do it. Much has been written on BH about this. Another quick list in no order. We often build stuff for the following:

 

1/ We want to save money. If you take a good trades person with a van at say £ 1200 - 1500 a week then add in a labourer you are in the region of 2.0k a week ex vat if not new building. To earn that you have to pay the tax on your income first. If you can do a bit yourself that is a significant saving. In parts of the country this is a lot more. But get this bit wrong an in a month 10.0 k can go down the drain on labour alone. 

 

2/ You could buy a Persimmon or the like house.. but that also has latent risk.. and just not the right shape or size.

 

3/ You have a dream.. this is common. It's a not just a dream, it that earthy thing we have to build a home just for us. 

 

Say you work in banking / insurance.. you work but by self building you make something that lasts.. probably longer than you will live.. it's instinct.. basic and the deep satisfaction that you get will last for the rest of your life. In terms of mental health it bench marks something solid that you can look back on.

 

4/ Do it for the kids. Home building is deeply rooted in parenting, relationships, even if you don't have kids it's a thing that is deeply rewarding. Once you die you get to leave something that others will enjoy.

 

To finish.

 

Again I thank everyone for their posts and for BH for facilitating this. Now putting my pro hat on.. mental health is common in self building. The obvious reason is that it is hard, challenging, folk are putting their financial lives at risk so it's no surprise that it crops up as it tests you mentally. 

 

I'm sure many that have posted, including myself would, if given another go, say.. I would have done it in a different way. 

 

Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Most importantly though we are all still on the top site of the grass and living!

 

What ever you do don't be afraid about talking about mental health is perfectly normal, part of the construction industry. My wife is a Psychotherapist at the Scottish equivalent of Broadmoor so I have someone to talk to about this kind of stuff. 

 

Building stuff is much more about a people thing, how we interact, how we support each other in this modern day and age. From that conversation we can sort out contract's, make a cost programme and so on based around you the Client's way of being. 

 

But to make self building stack up financially you have to "cut" some corners, work oput what the risks are and these include your mental health.

 

Most designers, timber frame suppliers, ground workers etc are not like me! Even I have my limits. 

[AliG]

3 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

We have no income other than donations.  Many organisations would give their back teeth to be in a place like this. My only comment is that I think there was a donation tab, tried to find it @AliG. When joined BH I learnt loads, still do. I can see that the forum must be saving folks piles of cash at times and just think, I'll just send as a spontaneous gesture £50 quid as a thanks. 

Thanks for your kind words and donation.

 

TBH the real work is done by the guys who look after the website.

 

I’ll look at the donation tab, I’m not sure who was responsible for it. Maybe they took

it down after the last push for donations.

[Nickfromwales]

17 minutes ago, AliG said:

I’ll look at the donation tab, I’m not sure who was responsible for it. Maybe they took

it down after the last push for donations.

When I was treasurer, we took it down when we had say ~12 months of running costs in the coffers. The plan then being that when we're at <25% we'd raise the flag again, and so on. Ergo, the banner / tab went up and down according to demand; the thought was that we didn't want to flood the coffers unecessarily.

[Gus Potter]

36 minutes ago, AliG said:

Thanks for your kind words and donation.

 

TBH the real work is done by the guys who look after the website.

 

I’ll look at the donation tab, I’m not sure who was responsible for it. Maybe they took

it down after the last push for donations.

Hi Ali.

 

I've PM'd Jack so you can see that. I have expanded in a bit of detail. Again a great thanks to the Mods. 

 

But as a philistine. Yes there is concern at BH dropping off the rankings. I joined BH in 2020, so that puts me still in primary school in BH terms. 

 

Now my head does not zip up the back. To keep a show on the road like BH takes a lot of work and folk are doing this voluntarily!

 

All organisations like this from time to time have to go an element of turmoil. The Forum management are not always going to get on, some may become unwell or just move on, life takes over. When I joined Jeremy Harris was a guy I loved.. he had a hand in writing design codes, as an SE that interests me, but he left.. 

 

Please can you mods put back in place the option to make a quick contribution, say just a tenner. I have BH bank details but now with banking security that is not a good option to post bank details in public. 

 

Sometimes I make I post that I know is going to save folk thousands and then suggest.. just make a donation. Yes I do it for free, as do many others, but we can't do that without the BH platform. Sometimes I say.. we have as a Bh group saved you loads.. for free, so make a contribution to BH. BH need to strike while the iron is hot and folk realise that their arse has been saved! They ain't going to come back if you have a fund raiser every six months!

 

If BH end up with too much donations in the bank then that is a problem for another day!

 

 

[Nickfromwales]

7 minutes ago, Gus Potter said:

that is not a good option to post bank details in public

Nobody has, and nobody will  

 

Any such details would be shared by the staff here in total confidence.

 

We'll that, and EasyJet.