Steel welding quality?

[Ay8452]

Hi guys,

 

Can anyone advise if the quality of welding here is acceptable? The blue section was neatly done off site and supplied like this. The Green section was done on site but it really doesn't look right to me. Building inspector coming tomorrow. 

 

This is a structural element in a two story extension for a vertical steel column. 

 

Thanks guys 

[Conor]

First question is, what is the weld doing?

[JohnMo]

Short answer is no. Longer answer is the weld should penetrate both materials. The weld you are focussing is basically sitting on the base material, so offers zero strength.  Look at the other weld near the bolt, looks about 50mm long, that is what the full seam weld should look like.

 

It needs to ground out and the weld be done correctly with a correct sized welder and filler material.

[Roger440]

What JohnMo said.

 

Looks like someone had a go with a baby mig. Hopeless.

 

 

[Nickfromwales]

 

This is what on-site welding with a decent size MIG can produce, in the hands of a seasoned, expert, fabricator and welder.

 

What you have is just a pile of heated wire laying on cold metal that the unit didn’t have the power to heat and fuse it all together.

 

Almost looks like a crap stick weld from an arc welder, but the guy we had on site made the stick welds exceptionally good too, so this one’s got zero excuse…..they just cannot weld.

 

Ask for it to be all taken apart, ground out, and for it to be welded again properly.

 

Utter shite. 👎👎👎👎👎

[Nickfromwales]

@Ay8452

 

Do not expect your BCO to have much to say, but if they condemn the welding as sub-par, then you have a good one.

 

I expect, if you say nothing until the absolute last minute of their inspection, that they will glance it over and walk on by.

 

Would be an interesting experiment.......just saying......

[Mr Punter]

Well spotted.  Not terrible but you are paying for a proper job. Tell them to redo it.  No fun onsite welding but if they priced for it they should do it properly.

[Nickfromwales]

6 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

Well spotted

+1

[Gus Potter]

Ok I have attached a guide I use as an SE for Weld inspection. For all on BH it's a great document for getting a handle on what might or not be dodgly welding. If you are a self builder then it's a good document that you can refer to if you have worries about welding on or off site. 

 

4 hours ago, Ay8452 said:

Building inspector coming tomorrow. 

Ask, raise your question with BC if they think the weld is compatible with my attachment.

 

It is highly unlikely that they will know about this stuff and if they have any sense they will say .. I don't know.. if they say it's ok ask.. are you insured to put this in writing.. they won't be!

 

As an SE, Client's ask me some questions that I don't know the answer to. I say I don't know but I'll go and find out! This is the mark of a professional but as a self builder you can read up also and be well able to make sure you are getting value for money out of folk like me that do this as a day job. 

 

What I can say is that if it is supposed to be a structural weld then it ain't going to pass. I'm telling you this as me! In fact if you look at the document I've attached you'll find that the welding is so shite it does not qualify as a weld at all!

 

Now if you have a builder that is taking the piss what you have here is on site is welding that I bet will be non compliant with the staturtory HSE law on CE compliance for structural steel, that is you CE compliance (for structural steelwork see internet and the law)   So at the end of the day if you builder is taking the piss they can go to jail!

 

You probably hold a lot more cards that you realise at the moment so keep you head up!

 

Don't accept this until you know more.

 

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

This is what on-site welding with a decent size MIG can produce, in the hands of a seasoned, expert, fabricator and welder.

Indeed Nick.. but as as SE the standard throat with is 4.2mm.. for a 6.0 mm weld leg length. The weld you show `looks of good quality.. but I would scrutinise this to make sure is actually has enought beef.. pretty it may be but.. 

 

to be blunt the weld in your picture is concave.. it should be convex so straight away I say.. it might look good in the pic but the throat width is not enough on apearance .. unless it is a partial penetration weld. 

 

So @Nickfromwales I won't be passing the welds you have shown either based on your photos!

 

 

 

 

 

Guide to Weld Inspection of Structural Steelwork BCSA Book 54-12.pdf

Edited Tuesday at 22:51 by Gus Potter

[Nickfromwales]

14 minutes ago, Gus Potter said:

So @Nickfromwales I won't be passing the welds you have shown either based on your photos!

One simply knows when two pieces of metal have been fused together sufficiently.

 

Given the 2 adjoining ridge beams were firstly, at my request, fully welded together (ahead of the fitment of the 2x plates (front and not visible rear)) I am more than happy with the results.

 

Before you fail them, maybe it would be beneficial that you'd perhaps better understand the overall situation, and after those facts are in I will take your punches squarely on the chin  

 

Until then, no dice old boy  

[Gus Potter]

1 minute ago, Nickfromwales said:

Before you fail them, maybe it would be beneficial that you'd perhaps better understand the overall situation, and after those facts are in I will take your punches squarely on the chin

On the face of it Nick I would say the welds are concave and not standard. I'm entitled to do this based on the photos, to make reasonable enquiry without being a tosser as best you can.

 

NIck, I'm just saying as an SE that welds look concave and if this was standard SE stuff then it's fair for me to ask as part of my due dilligence to ask is that ok? are the welds heavily loaded? Welds can be pretty strong after all if not subject to bending forces. 

 

Now if the loads are low then you can reduce the throat width and the ones you show may be just fine. So yes of course I don't understand the overall context.. but what I'm trying to do in my posts on BH is to give self builders tools and reference documents that they can use to get the best out of things and to provide informationto help them say to a builder.. that looks no good and here is why I think this way. 

 

But I'm not going to back off from this. If the weld you show in your picture has been designed on a 6.0. mm leg length which gives you an effective throat width of 4.2 mm and I can clearly see that the weld is concave then it just looks off!

 

Now it may be just fine as the loads will be low, but I'm trying to alert folk on BH about how SE's design normally, to support them when their gut feeling is telling them... that does @Ay8452 not look right to me. The whole connection and what is round about is looks seriously iffy to me as an SE.

 

@Ay8452 banter hat off .. get your SE to check this as built on site  for your own safety. You have thermailite or similar block in there be safe and ask questions.

24 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Until then, no dice old boy

Ok banter on BH keeps the ball rolling. So in that spirit.. If we all got on all the time it would be totally boring. In Scotland we say.. "come on ya yadge"  I think in Wales you break into song.. xxx

 

 

[saveasteading]

I once had to organise a site weld on a new building at Gatwick Airport. A fussy client.

It looked immaculate and was by a coded welder,  but the client insisted on a test. This involved setting up a magnetising rig, and throwing iron filings at the weld. The even spread of filings on original steel and new weld proved that it was now all one lump of steel. Pass.

Expensive.

[-rick-]

2 hours ago, saveasteading said:

This involved setting up a magnetising rig, and throwing iron filings at the weld. The even spread of filings on iriginal steel and new weld proved that it was now all one lump of steel. Pass.

Expensive.

 

I've been watching the Restoration Couple on Youtube and their self build. When they had some welding done on-site the welder did something similar as a matter of course.

 

The test itself shouldn't be expensive, having someone come in separately to do it would be.

[Nickfromwales]

9 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

On the face of it Nick I would say the welds are concave and not standard. I'm entitled to do this based on the photos, to make reasonable enquiry without being a tosser as best you can.

 

NIck, I'm just saying as an SE that welds look concave and if this was standard SE stuff then it's fair for me to ask as part of my due dilligence to ask is that ok? are the welds heavily loaded? Welds can be pretty strong after all if not subject to bending forces. 

 

Now if the loads are low then you can reduce the throat width and the ones you show may be just fine. So yes of course I don't understand the overall context.. but what I'm trying to do in my posts on BH is to give self builders tools and reference documents that they can use to get the best out of things and to provide informationto help them say to a builder.. that looks no good and here is why I think this way. 

 

But I'm not going to back off from this. If the weld you show in your picture has been designed on a 6.0. mm leg length which gives you an effective throat width of 4.2 mm and I can clearly see that the weld is concave then it just looks off!

 

Now it may be just fine as the loads will be low, but I'm trying to alert folk on BH about how SE's design normally, to support them when their gut feeling is telling them... that does @Ay8452 not look right to me. The whole connection and what is round about is looks seriously iffy to me as an SE.

 

@Ay8452 banter hat off .. get your SE to check this as built on site  for your own safety. You have thermailite or similar block in there be safe and ask questions.

Ok banter on BH keeps the ball rolling. So in that spirit.. If we all got on all the time it would be totally boring. In Scotland we say.. "come on ya yadge"  I think in Wales you break into song.. xxx

 

 

It’s fully welded at the butt joint, as well as additional mechanical fixing. 

 

It’s also now plated that side, and also on the reverse, for belt + belt + braces.

 

Needed adapting (beefing up) as we moved the point where the crown sent the load down to founds, on to the smaller width RB2 vs the original wider RB1 that it was first placed with. Originally RB2 just sat alongside RB1 with zero connection.

 

We also introduced a connecting plate at the underside, to accept the rising post, which we drilled and bolted and then also continuously welded too, for more braces.

 

If this moves even 1000th of a mm I’ll buy the drinks. 

 

SE will get pics, and sign it off accordingly, and BCO will inspect and nod / smile / shrug shoulders and so on.

 

Loads are small, just a simple (now) roof, so if anything it’s ott.

[Gus Potter]

Fair enough. 

 

Sometimes though we need to be careful when doing remedial work on site. 

 

As SE's we often deliberately design connections to be flexible. If we make them overly stiff they attract more load and that load can go somewhere we don't want it to.  

 

A good example is say you have a two storey house and converting the attic. Often you find that someone has knocked a hole in the central spine wall to create a more open plan space on the ground floor and chucked in a beam.

 

You do all the right things, sistering the attic joists and so on. But when you first look at the attic floor joists you see they are lapped over the spine wall by max two feet (600mm), so the joists are simply supported and mainly act as ties to stop the roof spreading. But sistering often means you are making the attic floor joists into a continuous member and that stiffening attracts a lot more load onto the spine wall which can then end up on the ground floor beam.. and then trouble can arise as it was never designed for that. 

 

So before you go welding stuff to death stop and think.. are there going to be knock on consequences? 

[Temp]

My son sections and inspects welds for a living. Took one look at the photo and said the bit done on site looks horrible and  should be redone. He suspected some might even come off if you run a hammer down it.

[Gus Potter]

On 19/08/2025 at 23:41, Gus Potter said:

to be blunt the weld in your picture is concave.. it should be convex so straight away I say.. it might look good in the pic but the throat width is not enough on apearance .. unless it is a partial penetration weld. 

 

So @Nickfromwales I won't be passing the welds you have shown either based on your photos!

 

23 minutes ago, Temp said:

My son sections and inspects welds for a living. Took one look at the photo and said the bit done on site looks horrible and  should be redone. He suspected some might even come off if you run a hammer down it.

I was trying to be diplomatic. 

 

That said as an SE I come across this quite often where folk have done remedial stick welding, not ground down the surfaces and so on. 

 

Yes, I could be anal about this but what I do on site is often to get everyone together and say what is the problem and how much load does the connection need to carry. Are we doing something that might chuck load in unwanted places? We then look for any part that might be a good weld and say ok.. can we count that and then check. 

 

Edited 22 hours ago by Gus Potter

[saveasteading]

24 minutes ago, Gus Potter said:

something that might chuck load in unwanted places? 

Anybody else seen a garage where the jacked vehicles clashed with a roof frame, so the garage cut the bottom angle out? It's amazing it stands up, but one day it will fail....and no insurance.

[LnP]

There is a gap between the two pieces which are to be welded together. Throat thickness and leg length don't mean much if the welder is trying to fill the gap with weld. The two pieces have been bolted up incorrectly.

Edited 22 hours ago by LnP

[marshian]

On 19/08/2025 at 19:00, Ay8452 said:

Hi guys,

 

Can anyone advise if the quality of welding here is acceptable? The blue section was neatly done off site and supplied like this. The Green section was done on site but it really doesn't look right to me. Building inspector coming tomorrow. 

 

This is a structural element in a two story extension for a vertical steel column. 

 

Thanks guys 

 

That doesn't even reach MOT std.............................. (and that's normally bloody terrible!!!!)

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, Gus Potter said:

So before you go welding stuff to death stop and think.. are there going to be knock on consequences? 

We did, and 35 years of experience, plus 30 years of experience, plus the SE drawings should remove any ambiguity or concerns.

 

If thing's I've previously built started falling down I'd seriously look for a new job. So far I've not met an SE who didn't concur that my 'bespoke' solutions wouldn't pass with flying colours. Don't ask me 'how' I know, but I just have a sense about these things, I come up with complex solutions, and they work (with professionally underwritten approvals). I'm not bragging btw, this is probably why I get only a few hours sleep each day.....I would welcome being dumb and well rested, trust me!!

[Gus Potter]

33 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Anybody else seen a garage where the jacked vehicles clashed with a roof frame, so the garage cut the bottom angle out? It's amazing it stands up, but one day it will fail....and no insurance.

No,  but that is the great thing about the building trade.. oh I've admitted this on BH before.

 

When I was a building Contractor in my last life I did a telephone exchange conversion for Mr Boom the Man on the Moon. He went off to AU and left some of his stuff under a hap, it was big pile and in there was his tractor, never lifted the hap as it was his stuff. 

 

He came back and said "where is my tractor?" I said what tractor! He said the one under the hap. So now the tractor is boxed inside the conversion and won't get through the narrowed door openings  Luckily a couple of lads who worked for me were Farmers, they took it apart and reassembled outside. 

 

 

[Gus Potter]

2 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

We did, and 35 years of experience, plus 30 years of experience, plus the SE drawings should remove any ambiguity or concerns.

 

If thing's I've previously built started falling down I'd seriously look for a new job. So far I've not met an SE who didn't concur that my 'bespoke' solutions wouldn't pass with flying colours. Don't ask me 'how' I know, but I just have a sense about these things, I come up with complex solutions, and they work (with professionally underwritten approvals). I'm not bragging btw, this is probably why I get only a few hours sleep each day.....I would welcome being dumb and well rested, trust me!!

This is a good conversation as it lets new folk on BH see what can crop up and how you might go about dealing with things. 

 

There is I think at least four or more BH members chipping in on this topic,  including yourself who do this as a day job. 

 

OK. In the round let's take these welds as a case in point. I pointed out why I would not pass them and uploaded a guide to weld inspection so that folk on BH can get a feel for what might be a good or a bad weld. 

1 hour ago, Temp said:

My son sections and inspects welds for a living.

Temp pitches up, no mucking about and says they are crap. I responded by saying let's not panic .. can we be pragmatic and find enough good weld that will do the job. 

 

"So far I've not met an SE who didn't concur that my 'bespoke' solutions wouldn't pass with flying colours."

 

And that is an interesting statement. I work from time to time as a checking SE. In a post earlier about William Le Messurier, the wind thingy on tall buildings off the back of what @SteamyTea was saying. One of Wiliams errors was that he was arrogant and self appointed not least, he would broke no dissent as a person and that primarily lead to his downfall. 

 

The point here is that SE's especially in this day and age make mistakes. I make mistakes occasionally when I do calcs. But I have a process that picks these artithmetecial errors up nearly all the time.  Nine times out of ten these get spotted in house when doing or looking at the drawings as your eperience tells you.. that does not look right!

 

Nine times out of ten when I check other SE's calcs I'll find mistakes. Some are benign, some are dangerous. I had one recently where the wrong axis of notation had been used by a well know UK SE company. The design was dangerous by a long way. But the main thing was that we caught it early, it was dealt with an no one fell out. On this project we are all experienced Engineers and designers and recognised that we caught it in time. 

 

28 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

this is probably why I get only a few hours sleep each day.

And that is why you probably want Nick to do your job! It's rare these days to find a builder / commercial designer / project manager that has this commitment. 

 

"welcome being dumb and well rested, trust me!!" and then you would die of boardom Nick! Keep doing what you are doing. 

[saveasteading]

8 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

Don't ask me 'how' I know

It is the "sense check" first, and proofs following if needed.

Exposure to lots of projects tells us how components react and what size to expect.

Do we inherently understand triangulation though?  Or learn it either in lectures or handling on site, or both.

Edited 13 hours ago by saveasteading

[Nickfromwales]

1 minute ago, saveasteading said:

It is the "sense check" first, and proofs following of needed.

Exposure to lots of projects tells us how components react and what size to expect.

Do we inherently understand triangulation though?  Or learn it either in lectures or handling on site, or both.

I change to a more serious side of the steels outside the heated envelope, or is captive, or as you say part of a group of connected steels.

 

Then you’re into elongated bolt holes etc and mostly mechanical joints, so I’ll stick to drawings at that point as it’s above my station.