Steel welding quality?

[Ay8452]

Hi guys,

 

Can anyone advise if the quality of welding here is acceptable? The blue section was neatly done off site and supplied like this. The Green section was done on site but it really doesn't look right to me. Building inspector coming tomorrow. 

 

This is a structural element in a two story extension for a vertical steel column. 

 

Thanks guys 

[Conor]

First question is, what is the weld doing?

[JohnMo]

Short answer is no. Longer answer is the weld should penetrate both materials. The weld you are focussing is basically sitting on the base material, so offers zero strength.  Look at the other weld near the bolt, looks about 50mm long, that is what the full seam weld should look like.

 

It needs to ground out and the weld be done correctly with a correct sized welder and filler material.

[Roger440]

What JohnMo said.

 

Looks like someone had a go with a baby mig. Hopeless.

 

 

[Nickfromwales]

 

This is what on-site welding with a decent size MIG can produce, in the hands of a seasoned, expert, fabricator and welder.

 

What you have is just a pile of heated wire laying on cold metal that the unit didn’t have the power to heat and fuse it all together.

 

Almost looks like a crap stick weld from an arc welder, but the guy we had on site made the stick welds exceptionally good too, so this one’s got zero excuse…..they just cannot weld.

 

Ask for it to be all taken apart, ground out, and for it to be welded again properly.

 

Utter shite. 👎👎👎👎👎

[Nickfromwales]

@Ay8452

 

Do not expect your BCO to have much to say, but if they condemn the welding as sub-par, then you have a good one.

 

I expect, if you say nothing until the absolute last minute of their inspection, that they will glance it over and walk on by.

 

Would be an interesting experiment.......just saying......

[Mr Punter]

Well spotted.  Not terrible but you are paying for a proper job. Tell them to redo it.  No fun onsite welding but if they priced for it they should do it properly.

[Nickfromwales]

6 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

Well spotted

+1

[Gus Potter]

Ok I have attached a guide I use as an SE for Weld inspection. For all on BH it's a great document for getting a handle on what might or not be dodgly welding. If you are a self builder then it's a good document that you can refer to if you have worries about welding on or off site. 

 

4 hours ago, Ay8452 said:

Building inspector coming tomorrow. 

Ask, raise your question with BC if they think the weld is compatible with my attachment.

 

It is highly unlikely that they will know about this stuff and if they have any sense they will say .. I don't know.. if they say it's ok ask.. are you insured to put this in writing.. they won't be!

 

As an SE, Client's ask me some questions that I don't know the answer to. I say I don't know but I'll go and find out! This is the mark of a professional but as a self builder you can read up also and be well able to make sure you are getting value for money out of folk like me that do this as a day job. 

 

What I can say is that if it is supposed to be a structural weld then it ain't going to pass. I'm telling you this as me! In fact if you look at the document I've attached you'll find that the welding is so shite it does not qualify as a weld at all!

 

Now if you have a builder that is taking the piss what you have here is on site is welding that I bet will be non compliant with the staturtory HSE law on CE compliance for structural steel, that is you CE compliance (for structural steelwork see internet and the law)   So at the end of the day if you builder is taking the piss they can go to jail!

 

You probably hold a lot more cards that you realise at the moment so keep you head up!

 

Don't accept this until you know more.

 

1 hour ago, Nickfromwales said:

This is what on-site welding with a decent size MIG can produce, in the hands of a seasoned, expert, fabricator and welder.

Indeed Nick.. but as as SE the standard throat with is 4.2mm.. for a 6.0 mm weld leg length. The weld you show `looks of good quality.. but I would scrutinise this to make sure is actually has enought beef.. pretty it may be but.. 

 

to be blunt the weld in your picture is concave.. it should be convex so straight away I say.. it might look good in the pic but the throat width is not enough on apearance .. unless it is a partial penetration weld. 

 

So @Nickfromwales I won't be passing the welds you have shown either based on your photos!

 

 

 

 

 

Guide to Weld Inspection of Structural Steelwork BCSA Book 54-12.pdf

Edited 13 hours ago by Gus Potter

[Nickfromwales]

14 minutes ago, Gus Potter said:

So @Nickfromwales I won't be passing the welds you have shown either based on your photos!

One simply knows when two pieces of metal have been fused together sufficiently.

 

Given the 2 adjoining ridge beams were firstly, at my request, fully welded together (ahead of the fitment of the 2x plates (front and not visible rear)) I am more than happy with the results.

 

Before you fail them, maybe it would be beneficial that you'd perhaps better understand the overall situation, and after those facts are in I will take your punches squarely on the chin  

 

Until then, no dice old boy  

[Gus Potter]

1 minute ago, Nickfromwales said:

Before you fail them, maybe it would be beneficial that you'd perhaps better understand the overall situation, and after those facts are in I will take your punches squarely on the chin

On the face of it Nick I would say the welds are concave and not standard. I'm entitled to do this based on the photos, to make reasonable enquiry without being a tosser as best you can.

 

NIck, I'm just saying as an SE that welds look concave and if this was standard SE stuff then it's fair for me to ask as part of my due dilligence to ask is that ok? are the welds heavily loaded? Welds can be pretty strong after all if not subject to bending forces. 

 

Now if the loads are low then you can reduce the throat width and the ones you show may be just fine. So yes of course I don't understand the overall context.. but what I'm trying to do in my posts on BH is to give self builders tools and reference documents that they can use to get the best out of things and to provide informationto help them say to a builder.. that looks no good and here is why I think this way. 

 

But I'm not going to back off from this. If the weld you show in your picture has been designed on a 6.0. mm leg length which gives you an effective throat width of 4.2 mm and I can clearly see that the weld is concave then it just looks off!

 

Now it may be just fine as the loads will be low, but I'm trying to alert folk on BH about how SE's design normally, to support them when their gut feeling is telling them... that does @Ay8452 not look right to me. The whole connection and what is round about is looks seriously iffy to me as an SE.

 

@Ay8452 banter hat off .. get your SE to check this as built on site  for your own safety. You have thermailite or similar block in there be safe and ask questions.

24 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

Until then, no dice old boy

Ok banter on BH keeps the ball rolling. So in that spirit.. If we all got on all the time it would be totally boring. In Scotland we say.. "come on ya yadge"  I think in Wales you break into song.. xxx

 

 

[saveasteading]

I once had to organise a site weld on a new building at Gatwick Airport. A fussy client.

It looked immaculate and was by a coded welder,  but the client insisted on a test. This involved setting up a magnetising rig, and throwing iron filings at the weld. The even spread of filings on original steel and new weld proved that it was now all one lump of steel. Pass.

Expensive.

[-rick-]

2 hours ago, saveasteading said:

This involved setting up a magnetising rig, and throwing iron filings at the weld. The even spread of filings on iriginal steel and new weld proved that it was now all one lump of steel. Pass.

Expensive.

 

I've been watching the Restoration Couple on Youtube and their self build. When they had some welding done on-site the welder did something similar as a matter of course.

 

The test itself shouldn't be expensive, having someone come in separately to do it would be.

[Nickfromwales]

9 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

On the face of it Nick I would say the welds are concave and not standard. I'm entitled to do this based on the photos, to make reasonable enquiry without being a tosser as best you can.

 

NIck, I'm just saying as an SE that welds look concave and if this was standard SE stuff then it's fair for me to ask as part of my due dilligence to ask is that ok? are the welds heavily loaded? Welds can be pretty strong after all if not subject to bending forces. 

 

Now if the loads are low then you can reduce the throat width and the ones you show may be just fine. So yes of course I don't understand the overall context.. but what I'm trying to do in my posts on BH is to give self builders tools and reference documents that they can use to get the best out of things and to provide informationto help them say to a builder.. that looks no good and here is why I think this way. 

 

But I'm not going to back off from this. If the weld you show in your picture has been designed on a 6.0. mm leg length which gives you an effective throat width of 4.2 mm and I can clearly see that the weld is concave then it just looks off!

 

Now it may be just fine as the loads will be low, but I'm trying to alert folk on BH about how SE's design normally, to support them when their gut feeling is telling them... that does @Ay8452 not look right to me. The whole connection and what is round about is looks seriously iffy to me as an SE.

 

@Ay8452 banter hat off .. get your SE to check this as built on site  for your own safety. You have thermailite or similar block in there be safe and ask questions.

Ok banter on BH keeps the ball rolling. So in that spirit.. If we all got on all the time it would be totally boring. In Scotland we say.. "come on ya yadge"  I think in Wales you break into song.. xxx

 

 

It’s fully welded at the butt joint, as well as additional mechanical fixing. 

 

It’s also now plated that side, and also on the reverse, for belt + belt + braces.

 

Needed adapting (beefing up) as we moved the point where the crown sent the load down to founds, on to the smaller width RB2 vs the original wider RB1 that it was first placed with. Originally RB2 just sat alongside RB1 with zero connection.

 

We also introduced a connecting plate at the underside, to accept the rising post, which we drilled and bolted and then also continuously welded too, for more braces.

 

If this moves even 1000th of a mm I’ll buy the drinks. 

 

SE will get pics, and sign it off accordingly, and BCO will inspect and nod / smile / shrug shoulders and so on.

 

Loads are small, just a simple (now) roof, so if anything it’s ott.