To MCS or not...?

[Benpointer]

...that is the question.

Whether 'tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous profiteering from an MCS registered company,

Or simply buy the ASHP and UFH kit myself for our self-build, and have my local trusted but non-MCS plumber install it?

 

Quotes so far from a couple of local MCS registered companies for an 8kW ASHP, 300l cylinder and 170 m2 UFH pipes, manifold and controls are: £16k or £20k...  those are after the deduction of the £7500 grant.  

 

Or with my local plumber I could buy the kit myself and have installed for £14k, no grant.  

 

(It would be nice if I could find an MCS person to check and sign it off for a share of the £7,500 grant.)

 

Regarding cooling, I had this classic suggestion from the £20k company who clearly don't understand the basics of physics:

"A simpler approach might be to install marble worktops and insulate the room to minimise unwanted temperate gains".

 

Who'd a thunk it, all you need is some stone worktops, what a marbleous suggestion!

[ProDave]

Have a look at the company (someone will be along to fill in the gap in my memory) that will supply an ASHP and all kit for "free" using the grant money, leaving you just to pay for the install.

[crispy_wafer]

7 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Have a look at the company (someone will be along to fill in the gap in my memory) that will supply an ASHP and all kit for "free" using the grant money, leaving you just to pay for the install.

 

coolenergy

 

 

[ProDave]

That's the one.  That's what I would choose if building now.

[Moonshine]

Also bear in mind MCS guidance has changed and in September 2025 new lower noise criteria will apply, maybe making installs more challenging.

 

https://mcscertified.com/mcs-has-published-an-updated-version-of-mcs-020/

 

It now allows two heat pumps for detached houses, but noise criteria has dropped from 42 dB to 37 dB.

 

If you are not going to go the MCS permitted development, your LPA may ask for a noise assessment of the unit for planning.

[Benpointer]

Brilliant thanks - looks like just what I need.  I've already called Cool Energy and they are sending me through details.

 

Build Hub comes up trumps once again!

 

(Can I still use the word trump?)

[Bancroft]

2 hours ago, ProDave said:

will supply an ASHP and all kit for "free"

I presume the pump they supply is their own (ie you can't pick and choose)?

 

If so, does anyone know if theirs is a copy of any of the more popular/common ones - most ASHPs seem to just be re-badged versions of the same thing.

[dpmiller]

Coolenergy pumps are OEM'd by Sprsun. They may brand for other retailers too. You'll not find too many similarities with the big brands as Sprsun use a suite of control gear from Carel whereas Panasonic, Samsung etc do it all in-house

[Iceverge]

6 hours ago, Benpointer said:

Can I still use the word trump?

 

You can but there's a charge for it. A tariff if you will. 

Edited April 17 by Iceverge

[Dillsue]

6 hours ago, Benpointer said:

Brilliant thanks - looks like just what I need.  I've already called Cool Energy and they are sending me through details.

 

Build Hub comes up trumps once again!

 

(Can I still use the word trump?)

Just a heads up for what they may offer. Our detailed heat loss cals show a heat loss of 6.5kw at -2. This winter when it was zero outside, we maintained house temp around 19/20 degrees with 4kw of fan heaters running so I'm quite confident the calculated loss is fairly representative at 6.5kw

 

Seeing the Coolenergy offer of a free kit of parts with me sorting the installation I made an enquiry and fell off my chair when they quoted for an 18kw unit. The 18kw unit won't even modulate down to my max heat loss so will spend its life short cycling and putting a significant dent in my bank account. When I shared my detailed calcs with them they stopped talking to me!

 

By all means go down the Coolenergy route but get your heat loss worked out by someone else and don't accept a massively oversized heat pump

[Iceverge]

7 hours ago, Benpointer said:

with my local plumber I could buy the kit myself and have installed for £14k, no grant.  

 

Definitely this option. 

 

Out of principle if nothing else. 

[JohnMo]

7 hours ago, Benpointer said:

could buy the kit myself... have installed for £14k

Sorry both that option and the MCS route are bonkers expensive.

 

UFH less than £1k materials, two days to install. Manifold, pipes, isolation valves, not much else needed.

 

Shop around heat pump and cylinder around£4k all in. Should only take an electrician 1 day and plumper 3 days to install on a new build.

 

So why so expensive?

 

[Benpointer]

1 hour ago, JohnMo said:

Sorry both that option and the MCS route are bonkers expensive.

 

UFH less than £1k materials, two days to install. Manifold, pipes, isolation valves, not much else needed.

 

Shop around heat pump and cylinder around£4k all in. Should only take an electrician 1 day and plumper 3 days to install on a new build.

 

So why so expensive?

 

I just used Midsummer Wholesale Heat Pump Kit Builder (Samsung 8kW + UK cylinders 300l tank, + fittings = £6657) and the Underfloor heating store (180m2 kit - £3486) to get a rough price, then added a generous amount (too much probably) for labour.  

 

Take your point though - should be able to get it much cheaper.

[JamesPa]

9 hours ago, Moonshine said:

It now allows two heat pumps for detached houses, but noise criteria has dropped from 42 dB to 37 dB

That's not actually correct.  The noise criterion for the heat pump was always 37dBA, but they (pointlessly) added on a nominal background figure and added together it was 42dBA.  They have now deleted the nominal background from the calculation.  As far as the heat pump is concerned nothing changes.

 

What has changed is the definition of 'substantial barrier' (there now is one) and they have added a calculation for two heat pumps.

[Nickfromwales]

4 hours ago, Benpointer said:

I just used Midsummer Wholesale Heat Pump Kit Builder (Samsung 8kW + UK cylinders 300l tank, + fittings = £6657) and the Underfloor heating store (180m2 kit - £3486) to get a rough price, then added a generous amount (too much probably) for labour.  

 

Take your point though - should be able to get it much cheaper.

Pan

 

 

 

 

a

 

 

 

 

 

sonic.

 

#subliminalmessage

 

Cylinders2go for UVC.

 

Fired up another Panasonic today, still very happy with how quiet and cost-effective these are for a simple install.

 

And cool capable straight out of the box.

 

[sharpener]

MCS position in the market is no less entrenched. They seem to have fixed many of the bugbears but the assessment position being in the middle of free space could still be problematic.

 

Has there been discussion of this elsewhere on the forum which I missed?

 

Can't easily find an authoritative link to an actual "in force" date, has one been announced?

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, sharpener said:

Has there been discussion of this elsewhere on the forum which I missed?

I think that would be a "yes", as there has.

 

Just another BS government 'initiative', with MCS being equally as w4nk as the FIT, et-al. And we vote for these people......... (well, not me anyways).

[LnP]

Coolenergy are not the only people offering an MCS umbrella scheme. If you do an internet search there are several others including for example this one from Vaillant. Does anybody have any thoughts about or experience with those?

[JohnMo]

2 minutes ago, LnP said:

Coolenergy are not the only people offering an MCS umbrella scheme. If you do an internet search there are several others including for example this one from Vaillant. Does anybody have any thoughts about or experience with those?

If you do basic plumbing yourself and are comfortable using eBay/Gumtree/Facebook marketplace to source materials you can DIY a heat pump install quite cheaply, think I was about £3k all in, for a system doing heat and cooling.

 

So an umbrella scheme that doesn't come in at zero cost for materials is a waste of time.

[LnP]

9 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

If you do basic plumbing yourself and are comfortable using eBay/Gumtree/Facebook marketplace to source materials you can DIY a heat pump install quite cheaply, think I was about £3k all in, for a system doing heat and cooling.

 

So an umbrella scheme that doesn't come in at zero cost for materials is a waste of time.

Definitely a good solution and hats off to you for sorting that out.

 

I'm not planning to DIY but am thinking about a hybrid arrangement with a guy who's a qualified plumber and electrician - Gas Safe, NICEIC etc. He's done work for me before and we get on well together. I'm more involved in the work than a typical customer and he's happy with that. We'll discuss what we need and he's happy for me to buy the kit and for him to install it. I value and respect his experience and occasionally I bring a different perspective. He's not MCS certified as he thinks it's a rip-off for something he's already qualified to do. For our self build, we've discussed him installing the heat pump under an umbrella scheme, but we haven't finalised that yet, hence my interest. This would be his first heat pump installation but he's up for that and interested in the project. Maybe I can buy the kit cheaply, as you have done, have him install it and I still get the grant. We can work this out so he and I both benefit.

 

He's also interested in installing the PV, but that's another story!

[JohnMo]

4 minutes ago, LnP said:

hybrid arrangement

Would that be a hybrid install as in heat pump and gas or something else?

[LnP]

Just now, JohnMo said:

Would that be a hybrid install as in heat pump and gas or something else?

Sorry, no I meant hybrid in the sense of the way we work. It'll be just an ASHP.

[Dillsue]

2 hours ago, LnP said:

Maybe I can buy the kit cheaply, as you have done, have him install it and I still get the grant. We can work this out so he and I both benefit.

AFAIK you need the system designed and commissioned by an MCS certified outfit to get the grant.

[Benpointer]

2 hours ago, LnP said:

Definitely a good solution and hats off to you for sorting that out.

 

I'm not planning to DIY but am thinking about a hybrid arrangement with a guy who's a qualified plumber and electrician - Gas Safe, NICEIC etc. He's done work for me before and we get on well together. I'm more involved in the work than a typical customer and he's happy with that. We'll discuss what we need and he's happy for me to buy the kit and for him to install it. I value and respect his experience and occasionally I bring a different perspective. He's not MCS certified as he thinks it's a rip-off for something he's already qualified to do. For our self build, we've discussed him installing the heat pump under an umbrella scheme, but we haven't finalised that yet, hence my interest. This would be his first heat pump installation but he's up for that and interested in the project. Maybe I can buy the kit cheaply, as you have done, have him install it and I still get the grant. We can work this out so he and I both benefit.

 

He's also interested in installing the PV, but that's another story!

This is exactly what we are aiming to do, and I have a good plumber in a similar position.

 

15 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

Pan

 

a

 

sonic.

 

#subliminalmessage

 

Cylinders2go for UVC.

 

Fired up another Panasonic today, still very happy with how quiet and cost-effective these are for a simple install.

 

And cool capable straight out of the box.

 

 

Is there a hint in there somewhere?  

 

Just need an MCS umbrella scheme to cover the Panasonic...  ('cos: £7500 innit)

[LnP]

27 minutes ago, Dillsue said:

AFAIK you need the system designed and commissioned by an MCS certified outfit to get the grant.

I'm still learning. Thanks for the clarification, yes designed and commissioned, but not installed. And I noted your earlier comment "When I shared my detailed calcs with them they stopped talking to me!" So they won't guarantee your 6.5 kW requirement. They say they take care of:

• System Design & Diagrams
• Installation Support & Installer Training
• On Site System Check & Commission
• The Latest Cool Energy InverTech Heat Pump With Remote Support Over Wifi
• High-Quality INOX Stainless Steel Unvented Pre-Wired Cylinder
• Full Handover Pack & Insurance Backed Guarantee

They also "take care of the paperwork" to claim the £7,500 grant.... does that mean they keep all of the grant money? Otherwise, how would they make their money? £7,500 might seem a lot for what they're delivering, but for the customer, it's still a free heat pump, cylinder etc, so could be attractive.

 

But the question would be, is there an umbrella scheme operator out there who will work with the client on the design? Or do they all insist on over-designing by a factor of two? Or is the over-design inherent in the MCS heat loss calculation methodology?