Architects, ballooning fees and estimates

[Drellingore]

34 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

My main example of that is we wanted the garage to be a mini version of the house which is what the planning approval is for. However, once we got started it was quickly very clear that it was going to cost far too much money. A tiny part of me regrets not doing it however. 

 

How has the worked out with planning, out of interest - are you going to have to re-apply with updated plans for the garage?

[ETC]

Question 1: do you think we're f***ed, or is the £3,500sqm figure nuts?

Question 2: would you be livid if your architect designed something double your budget without highlighting the rising cost?
Question 3: do you think the doubling of stage 4 fees is reasonable or are they taking the piss?

Question 4: anyone ever switched architect between planning and technical design?

 

You need to sit down with your architect and ask them why fees have increased and why they believe the build cost could increase. If you gave them a budget they should have stuck with it - if materials cost have increased significantly between now and the appointment then you should be told about this and given the opportunity of either agreeing the increased budget or reducing the materials specifications - even the option to phase the works until you can raise the additional capitol.

[Jilly]

2 hours ago, Drellingore said:

Ta all. Having started to dig into things a bit, we have a lot of glazing, so we might need to scale that back. 

That’s a good place to start, not just in cost, spec, logistics, but also overheating and Building Control issues. 
 

Have you actually got planning permission yet?

[Drellingore]

8 minutes ago, Jilly said:

Have you actually got planning permission yet?

 

The planning officer has said she intends to grant it, and we've just signed the unilateral undertaking to assert that we're self-builders. She says this is the last thing before determination, other than her getting sign-off on the report from her manager. 

 

We're thinking to get the determination first (this application was submitted last May) and then raise amendments if necessary, so we've got the original planning permission locked in place if we need to sell. We're already planning to re-apply to enlarge the redline, put the BNG on-site, and therefore not need the self-builder exemption and the S106 and local charge that follow from that.

 

Other headaches today include "will anyone lend on an oak-frame building; will we be able to get a warranty on an oak-frame building; is it remotely possible to meet EnerPHit standards with an oak-frame building without spending millions."

I knew this self-building malarkey would involve lots of curveballs and challenges, but I was hoping by now to have a better idea of whether what we're doing is remotely feasible 😅

Edited February 4 by Drellingore

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, Kelvin said:

they made a mistake, incompetence, or sharp practice. 

You omit ignorance. Architects don't usually understand cost.

I've done many a project where the best quotation was way higher than budget, double even. 

We were then recommended by one of our previous clients, and given the brief to make it work.

 

The usual problem was a linear process of design with nobody questioning it until the horror quotes came in.

Our answer was 'all experts in the room' before it even starts. so you bounce off each other to get the optimum. 

 

It can be too late once the design has planning approval.

 

But to agree with your cynical/ realistic assertion. One Architect told me that 'the client will always find more money'. I declined to be involved.

 

On 30/01/2025 at 18:23, Drellingore said:

Question 1: do you think we're f***ed, or is the £3,500sqm figure nuts?

 It may be deliberately conservative. Its the worst that could happen if you just say to carry on and have no involvement.

 

On 30/01/2025 at 18:23, Drellingore said:

Question 2: would you be livid if your architect designed something double your budget without highlighting the rising cost?

Yes I'd consider sacking and/or suing.

 

On 30/01/2025 at 18:23, Drellingore said:

Question 3: do you think the doubling of stage 4 fees is reasonable or are they taking the piss?

they want a %, and it's of a higher figure. They have some extra cost in insurance, but not twice the work. In fact if they hand it over to an expert builder, they will do  a lot of the detail work or not tneed the drawings..

 

 

On 30/01/2025 at 18:23, Drellingore said:

Question 4: anyone ever switched architect between planning and technical design?

Yes. Or I should say the client has , to us as design and build contractor. If the Architect was ok, just not very good, he could stay in some capacity for the client. Usually I insisted they were paid off and not remotely involved.

 

 

The advice above is good. NB I have not looked at your design yet.

Tell them in writing that the doubling of cost is not acceptable, and  to stop work immediately and that you will have  a meeting when you have considered your options.

 

[Drellingore]

2 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Our answer was 'all experts in the room' before it even starts. so you bounce off each other to get the optimum. 

 

Yeah, this is how I'd've loved to have done it, but maybe I didn't push hard enough in getting all the people together at once. It's certainly what we do in my IT professional life - get everyone face-to-face for fast feedback. Ah well!

[Dunc]

Doubling of budget to £3500/m² implies the original budget was £1750/m² which feels pretty lean. When I was enaging with architects nearly 2 years ago, and in the north of Scotland, they all suggested starting with a minimum budget of £2000/m². The two passive registered architects both suggested £3500/m². So there may be an underlying issue on what was estimated for. As others have said, a good conversation is probably the best way forward.

 

We did think about changing architects after planning permission was gained but were not brave enough to make the change. Better the devil you know? In my project all the experts (SE, architect, TF company) seem to have very finite boundaries and just push stuff over the wall. It is very difficult to get them to talk to each other to communally solve problems.

[Kelvin]

1 hour ago, Drellingore said:

 

How has the worked out with planning, out of interest - are you going to have to re-apply with updated plans for the garage?

Yes I’ll need to submit a variation. The architect submitted an incorrect drawing for the house too that sneaked past into the warrant approval. It’s nothing significant as it’s the position of the utility room window and the side of the front door the vision panel is on so I would have had to submit a variation anyway. 

[saveasteading]

@Drellingore I was sending a private message but it is blocked. Understandable.

[Kelvin]

I’m not convinced ignorance should ever be an excuse for a professional. I used to drum it into my team (IT professionals) if you don’t know then you don’t know and it’s ok to say you don’t know because there will be someone else that does know.  
 

Very early on in our build, just after we had submitted planning, the architect was pushing me to engage a QS. They had one they recommended to people. I had two conversations with him and he succeeded in winding me up on both occasions. I could not get a rough estimate out of him for the finished house. He even scoffed at my very suggestion of a bottom middle top cost/m², and said it was a schoolboy error to even ask it. 

[Buzz]

Hi @Drellingore 

Like you I find it difficult to understand why when you gave your architect a budget they didn't throw up any red flags to the escalating costs before now , they must have known where the final cost was likely to be very early on in the process but carried on regardless, always easy to spend someone else's money.

So what does that tell us about them as a company? Either they are incompetent and have no idea when designing a home as to the cost of what they are drawing as they go along or they don't care about the costs as that's your problem, neither are a good look .

 

[EdHat]

I agree with others here and find it typical of many architects. £3,500 may not be unrealistic but their original estimate was. It sounds like they've designed what they wanted and given no consideration to your budget. I wouldn't be surprised if they aren't actually interested in doing the technical design, which looks like it's going to require a lot of consideration and bespoke details, and that's why they dropped that news now.

 

I would get a QS to give you a proper budget figure so you know whether you want to/ can proceed with the project or if you'd be better off revising the design or even selling the plot. I don't think the standard online/broker budget costs would be suitable as they usually assume  standard new build in terms of materials and details, yours seems more unique.

 

I see no problem changing designer at this stage. In fact many architects themselves outsource the technical design, or at least pass it to a technician within the firm. I'd look for a technician or building engineer/surveyor who's much more likely to be passionate about spec and detailing then an architect whose passion decreases with each RIBA stage.

 

Another designer looking at the plans may also have benefits as I wouldn't be surprised if an architect with no consideration of budget also gives little regard to practicalities of using and maintaining the building.

 

 

[Gus Potter]

On 30/01/2025 at 18:23, Drellingore said:

Our architects have upped their stage four fee quote from the original estimate and have also just dropped the bombshell that they think the build cost will be double the budget we told them we had when we first appointed them. They're suggesting £3,500sqm. While the wife is an interior architect and designer, we're not looking for ostentation, rather finishes with integrity and a lot of renewable energy tech.

To be blunt you both (wife and you) seem to know what you are talking about. But there is no mention of getting a cost aware SE involved that has 30 -40 years experience of knocking Architects into shape. Forget the QS idea. and don't even try to take the Architect on in terms of their design delivery drawing wise and so on. To win this you'll have to show they have been negligant. 

 

Your Architect will want to get the job done..they don't want you reporting on social media... maybe they just need a guiding hand. You too probably need a bit of tough love and some impartial advice that a good SE with a wide range of Architectural Design experience can provide. Don't forget folks that SE's get to look a Architectural designs all the time.. we kind of know what works, how details can look good, what is expensive and not buildable at practical cost.

 

You mention that the costs rocket at stage 4. The blame for this lies with the Architect unless you have moved the goal posts? . This is a small project and needs to be treated in a different way, particularly on a project like yours.

 

That said don't fall out with folk until you have exhausted all the avenues. So long as you are still talking to each other a compromise can often be reached.

 

 

Edited February 5 by Gus Potter

[ToughButterCup]

Have you tried talking to your architect about the problem yet?

 

I mean really talking? 

[Drellingore]

I'm wondering how useful QS cost plans are going to be. The examples we've seen don't seem particularly scientific or detailed... I wonder how much they actually look at the plans, and how much they just go "it's a barn, in this area, so prolly £XXXXsqm, divided this way according to the number of floors". Either way, we've solicited some quotes.

 

18 hours ago, saveasteading said:

 

@Drellingore I was sending a private message but it is blocked. Understandable.

 

Hmm, not sure why that might be? Is there a setting somewhere, or is this a moderation thing? I may have muted you years ago when we had a few not-very-fruitful exchanges, but I undid that a long time ago.

 

18 hours ago, Dunc said:

Doubling of budget to £3500/m² implies the original budget was £1750/m² which feels pretty lean

 

Yeah, I mean we have £750k after buying the plot, so that's how we've worked it out. There's not a huge amount of flexibility there as the plot and the build funds are the largest assets that we own, and I've been taking a career break (that's lasted longer than I'd like, to be honest!) after selling my company. I've just got to hope that Mr. Trump stops ruffling the markets and instead gets back to trying to fluff the crypto crowd so that my Bitcoin skyrockets!

 

10 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

there is no mention of getting a cost aware SE involved that has 30 -40 years experience of knocking Architects into shape

 

That's an interesting point. We've got an SE on board who has worked very closely with the oak framer who'll be taking point. We met one of their (much richer!) clients yesterday as it happens to get a bit of a reference and see their work in progress. The SE was applauded by the client for being very creative and a great problem-solver. I never really thought about SE's as a means to push back on cost expectations... I suppose there could be a lot of mileage in figuring out what the SE thinks is required, as maybe the architects are massively over-speccing?

 

4 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

Have you tried talking to your architect about the problem yet?

 

I mean really talking? 

 

No, as I don't think there's much point yet. They think one thing, based on a bunch of assumptions. I need to challenge those assumptions with data; without those data we can't really have a productive discussion. In between bouts of moaning on BuildHub, we're trying to pin down costs that specific suppliers can provide (we've given the energy stuff and plans to an M&E consultant for a quote, and the missus is putting together the glazing schedule). Once we've got a few things like pinned down, we can then think about seeking fee estimates from various folks to do stage four stuff, and consider putting the original architects back in the mix pending a conversation about trust and why we ended up in this situation.

BTW, just want to reiterate that I realise ultimate responsibility for being realistic falls on us. 

Edited February 5 by Drellingore

[G and J]

Not sure how helpful this is but here goes.....

 

When we met our architect on first beauty parade we gave a budget, basically it was what we thought the house would be worth, minus what we paid for the plot (in our case an overpriced bungalow that is to be demolished (shortly🤞)....not scientific.

 

In fairness, contrary it seems to your experience, he said right at the outset it would be work to achieve the m2 we were aiming for, but the "budget" was repeatedly referred to by both us and them while we were in the design phase e.g. we have a small first floor corner unsupported, it would have been cheaper to have a pillar, which they offered.

 

We are likely to bust our budget, (always thought we would) but it will be our choice and largely driven by the standard of finishes/landscaping etc, rather than by the form or method of the build, which whilst pretty standard is aiming for a high quality, low energy, airtight house (not passive standard).

 

So I suppose in your position (and we're guessing your a lot younger than us) we'd be thinking ....has there been design creep? What is driving the increase in costs,  fabric or finishes? Can we / are we willing to phase the project ? What are the things that you really really want? It may help you find an acceptable way forward.

 

None of the above is to say we wouldn't be feeling peeved if we were in your position now.

Edited February 5 by G and J
Typo

[JamesP]

19 hours ago, Dunc said:

Doubling of budget to £3500/m² implies the original budget was £1750/m² which feels pretty lean.

Having looked at your fab plans I feel the higher figure more realistic. Had it been a straight forward new build then less.

Will be amazing when completed.

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, Drellingore said:

and how much they just go "it's a barn, in this area, so prolly £XXXXsqm

I've seen such a costing. It measured the main elements and put a £/m2 against them.  That's what I would do too.

Floor 200m2 x £60

Aluminium Windows 40m2 x £600

Etc

Site setup  sum £20004site managemrnt 40 weeks x £1200 

And so on.

 

The big unkown is what a builder adds to that for overheads and profit.

Included or plus 20% or  40%.

And risk...who owns it?

 

A local might know the current marketplace better than someone far away. There are published multipliers for location but that's approximate.

 

As a contractor quoting, these rates are all worked out much more precisely.

A QS preparing a formsl document might have 3 times as many items for the same project.

[Drellingore]

23 hours ago, Drellingore said:

will anyone lend on an oak-frame building; will we be able to get a warranty on an oak-frame building;

Just in case a future thread-trawler finds this, Ecology will lend on oak frames, and bizarrely they don't require a warranty for the lending!

[Rom]

Generally architects charge around 10% of the projected project cost, so youll understand why its in theyre interest to overprice a job

 

In my last project (2023/4) i was told £3300 per square meter, when i actually requested the breakdown it was clear why the guess was so high, they had speced unneeded items, super high end brands that you cant even buy in regular merchants, i was even speced lime plaster which can only be bought in France!

 

Once i went through the whole breakdown i changed all the spec to the cheapest items that can be bought, and asked them to remove brand names, the point of this was to bring the architects quote down which it did durastically.

We ended up at £2050 psm, a massive difference!!

 

Remember if you tell the architect youre intending to buy the cheapest £1.99 wickes tiles then thats what he must quote your psm for, you pay them so dont be shy to tell them what you want. This doesnt mean that you have to use those tiles btw.

 

Another thing to tell them is your builders quote, state it at 60% of what your actually paying, they factor this into the psm price, obviously theyll spec that your using the most expensive builders in the land and your psm will reflect this which in turn will help the architects fee

 

Goodluck

[saveasteading]

3 hours ago, Rom said:

ended up at £2050 psm,

That's sensible. % of cost is a bad idea. Better get a fixed quote.

 

3 hours ago, Rom said:

state it at 60% of what your actually paying, they factor this

That's untrue.

Better just tell them that's your offer.

 

 

Edited February 26 by saveasteading

[ToughButterCup]

10 hours ago, saveasteading said:

That's sensible. % of cost is a bad idea. Better get a fixed quote.

...

 

 

Which is what we did. Here's the charging  schema used by our architect - easy, simple, open.  More detail here.

[joth]

14 hours ago, saveasteading said:

That's sensible. % of cost is a bad idea. Better get a fixed quote.

 

We were on a % of build cost (for a deep renovation) but prior to the tender being issued to contractors we agreed to "freeze" the architect fee at a fixed price based on this % of the target budget we were aiming for. This felt a good compromise as it meant during the tendering negotiations we knew they were onside with no additional motive to let the price balloon. 

I much preferred the architects that gave fixed price quote from the outset, but we compromised on this criteria because we wanted a passivhaus certified designer and there weren't many to choose from in 2018.

 

Edited February 27 by joth

[Rom]

15 hours ago, saveasteading said:

 

That's untrue.

Better just tell them that's your offer.

 

 

And then pay higher!?! No thanks

It worked for me, itll work for others - if working with a percentage based architect

Edited February 27 by Rom

[ETC]

I just love this type of debate. Architects may as well stick their finger in the air and make a guess at %cost fees. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again - this is a very lazy way of determining a fee for services and is in no way reflective of the time or effort required to do the work. Get the architect to give you a fixed fee cost. It will either be more than it takes to do the work or they will end up losing money.

 

For example an architect does a door or window schedule - the sizes are specified and the material but there could be thousands of pounds difference in cost from a supplier - and you end up paying a premium just because you picked an expensive product.