Architects, ballooning fees and estimates

[Drellingore]

Our architects have upped their stage four fee quote from the original estimate and have also just dropped the bombshell that they think the build cost will be double the budget we told them we had when we first appointed them. They're suggesting £3,500sqm. While the wife is an interior architect and designer, we're not looking for ostentation, rather finishes with integrity and a lot of renewable energy tech.

 

Our plans are available on the LPA's website for the curious. It's a dual barn conversion (one 18th century, one 1960's concrete monstrosity) with a link and a newbuild garage. The GIFA (ground and first floors) is 441 sqm for the barns, and another 74sqm for the garage. We're in the south-east, and will prolly do the project management and procurement ourselves.

 

We have £750k working capital available but will need a mortgage to pay off ~£350k of that when we're done (it's complicated). The plot was about £400k depending on whether you include the 3 acre field next door. The architect is now estimating a build cost of £1.2-1.5m, which seems utterly bonkers to us. I can't imagine the thing will be worth £1.9m when it's done, which presumably creates all sorts of mortgage problems.

 

Question 1: do you think we're f***ed, or is the £3,500sqm figure nuts?

Question 2: would you be livid if your architect designed something double your budget without highlighting the rising cost?

 

On the subject of the architect's fees... They did give us much more of their time for stages 0-3 than they were contractually committed to. I think they're now pricing in some of that into the next stage, and/or pricing in the risk of us asking as many questions again in stage four. Being charitable I can understand those explanations from a business perspective and can imagine good-intentioned motivations for them, but I would have much preferred an approach of transparency. Being skeptical it feels a lot like a bait-and-switch where they ramp up the fees once we're 'on the hook'. 

Question 3: do you think the doubling of stage 4 fees is reasonable or are they taking the piss?

Question 4: anyone ever switched architect between planning and technical design?

 

 I'm slightly iffy about posting this as their name is on the docs in the public record, but these are the facts of the matter.

Edited January 30 by Drellingore

[Drellingore]

BTW we are in the process now of getting quotes for various bits-and-pieces ourselves, so we can chip away at things like roof, glazing, M&E, and so on.

 

I don't think we can get a quantity surveyor involved until stage four is complete, or at least all the things are specified. However now the architects have doubled their stage four fee quote, we're disinclined to spend five figures so that then we can find out if we can afford the rest of it or not.

[Mr Punter]

I would pay the architect for the work done to date and get others to do the technical design.  I think around £2,500-£3,000 /m2 should be achievable.  I often use different architects for planning and building regs.

[Drellingore]

4 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

I would pay the architect for the work done to date and get others to do the technical design

4 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

I often use different architects for planning and building regs

 

Thanks, that's reassuing to know! We're all square for the fees so far. Now we've got the creative bit done, I'm tempted to go back to some of the solo architects we spoke to when we were originally getting quotes who might be better for the more functional and technical stuff.

 

4 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

I think around £2,500-£3,000 /m2 should be achievable

 

Again, thanks. I know it's all a bit 'how long is a piece of string' but even rough ideas are useful data at this stage, so it's appreciated.

Edited January 30 by Drellingore

[Mr Punter]

I have just had a quick look at the plans.  The fact that this is a conversion makes it more unpredictable.  I guess it is not possible to demolish and start again?

[twice round the block]

Are the stage 4 architects fee's based on an estimated % of the total build cost?

[Alan Ambrose]

Suggest - finish getting the look and feel through planning. Close up the architect’s contract. Keep them sweet in case you need anything else from them later. Then engage an SE, and a technologist to draw the BC stuff and use one of the QS services to cost it up. You can ask the QS what info they need and work back from there if you want. Then go out for actual quotes. None of that will cost much and you’ll have a firm-ish idea of costs at that point.

[nod]

When Architecht cost anything It’s always top dollar and tends to be a finger in the air estate 

[WisteriaMews]

Build cost - I don't think £3,500 per sqm is that crazy in the south east if you are going to do a decent specification (e.g. you mention a lot of renewable tech). Build costs have gone up a lot post pandemic. I actually think it's refreshing they've given you an estimate (many architects don't in my experience). I'd suggest an open conversation with them on why they think that will be the cost  They'll know the cost of their recently completed projects. I expect they have some comparable projects to yours that have cost £3,500 per sqm and that's why their suggesting that price to you.

 

Architect fees - in my (limited) experience all architects base their fees on a % of your project cost. Stage 0-3 they usually price on a % what you say your budget is. When it has become clearer what the real cost is going to be they'll re-baseline for the later stages. There will be a lot of work in a 441 sqm building.

 

It's really tough. It's a lot of money. It feels very frustrating when you get fee hikes / estimates higher than you expected / hoped.

 

I'm sure you can cut the build cost. Do you have time to fight for every bargain and do work yourself, or do you want to give the job to a good main contractor and take pressure off yourself?

 

In my experience a good architect is really valuable on a project. They'll come up with good solutions, they'll design nice spaces to live in, they'll take a lot of work off you, they'll solve a lot of problems. 

 

(I suspect my view are contrary to a lot of people on this forum.)

Edited January 30 by WisteriaMews

[Jilly]

I changed architects for the BC drawings and it was a mistake and caused a lot of problems, but I was a rookie, it sounds like you are better placed than I was. Barn conversions can be unpredictable, especially foundations. 
 

Is making two dwellings a possibility? Or divide the project into two phases and live in one part then build-as-you-earn the other phase? There will be VAT implications etc but you will make other savings.

I’ve heard of clients offering to share the cost saving with the architect if they can come up with something cheaper as an incentive. 

 

 

[bmj1]

I would go so far as to suggest that architects are generally not experts in how to run building projects cost effectively. I'm not knocking the value of a good architect, rather pointing out their limitations to manage expectations.

 

Experienced developers and self builders care more about cost and learn how to optimise a design.

 

The other people who potentially can help are good QSs / PMs.

[ToughButterCup]

13 hours ago, Drellingore said:

 

Question 1: do you think we're f***ed, or is the £3,500sqm figure nuts?

Question 2: would you be livid if your architect designed something double your budget without highlighting the rising cost?
Question 3: do you think the doubling of stage 4 fees is reasonable or are they taking the piss?

Question 4: anyone ever switched architect between planning and technical design?

 

 

1.  No

2. Whats the point of being livid? Eyes on the prize- the house. Value engineer.

3: Think, Talk. Compromise

4  '... I would have much preferred an approach of transparency.  ...' Have you tried talking? Why not?

[Conor]

One of the reasons we went with our architect was that his fees were based on a rate /m².... So we knew exactly how much each stage would cost.

 

And, yes, architects are in a reasonable place to provide a build cost estimate, but they are not experts. 

[Bramco]

Plan ahead - get mates rates - have children, interest as many as possible in becoming an architect - pay their study fees and support them through their course and bingo!  But also don't expect to be top of the queue when it comes to your build, so if you thought it could be designed quickly, then forget it.  Patience is a virtue as they say.

[Alan Ambrose]

You could also have a calm exploratory meeting with the architect to see what you can learn:

 

+ your original estimate was xxx. Was that finger in the air or based on a calculated estimate? How exactly did you arrive at that figure?

+ ditto the recent estimate.

+ how do they explain such a difference? Is the 2nd figure unreliable also? Are there features in the final design that vastly increased the cost? If so, why were these not communicated at the time?

+ etc etc etc

 

In any event, it’s careless and bad client handling, which says a lot. I once had a medium experienced solicitor who suddenly wanted to double my bill, without any explanation, for some (already not cheap) conveyancing. I talked to her boss and we came to a compromise. But those solicitors are firmly crossed off my list now.

[Drellingore]

Thanks to all for your thoughts, it's appreciated. This week hasn't been massively fun.

 

15 hours ago, Mr Punter said:

I guess it is not possible to demolish and start again?

 

Sadly not, as it's a non-designated heritage asset outside of settlement boundaries.

 

2 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

Whats the point of being livid? Eyes on the prize- the house.

 

Indeed, "all is as thinking makes it so," and all that. Emotions can be a useful source of information though, and one possible outcome is that if their conduct is unreasonable then I should be making complaints.

 

13 hours ago, Alan Ambrose said:

Then engage an SE, and a technologist to draw the BC stuff and use one of the QS services to cost it up. You can ask the QS what info they need and work back from there if you want. Then go out for actual quotes. None of that will cost much and you’ll have a firm-ish idea of costs at that point.

 

Thanks! It's nice to have some actionable advice, and a bit of hope to go with it.

 

15 hours ago, twice round the block said:

Are the stage 4 architects fee's based on an estimated % of the total build cost?

 

I'm not sure. I think informally yes, contractually no. They originally estimated that of their fees, 30% would be stages 0-3, 30% stage 4, and 40% stages 5-6. They know that we're unlikely to lean on them much in stage 5 onwards as we're quite far away, so maybe they've bumped up stage four accordingly?

 

3 hours ago, Jilly said:

Is making two dwellings a possibility? Or divide the project into two phases and live in one part then build-as-you-earn the other phase?

 

Yes, this is certainly an idea. The concrete building would be quickest, and we have the opportunity to convert our suburban townhouse into an HMO which could bring in about £3-4k a month. One of the possible snags here would be as-yet-unwritten planning conditions, that the teenage kids would need to share a room, and that the M&E was leaning towards a central design with the plant room in the other building. Most of those aren't show-stoppers though.

 

27 minutes ago, Alan Ambrose said:

You could also have a calm exploratory meeting

 

Yeah, I think some sort of post-mortem if we bin them off would be a good idea. The email exchange has been informative and civil thus far.

 

27 minutes ago, Alan Ambrose said:

In any event, it’s careless and bad client handling

 

I'm glad that I'm not the only person to think so. Both the missus and I work in professional services and consultancy. If we were engaging a customer on time-and-materials basis who had a fixed budget, and we didn't keep them informed of the burndown on their budget, we would expect that client to be pissed off. I would've hoped for some sort of point where they'd raise a flag and say "this scope is starting to exceed your budget, have you realised that" or similar.

[ToughButterCup]

I think the issue you raise in this thread is a fairly common one.

 

At its heart, its really simple.    There's a problem.

Both systems and people show themselves for what they really are when things go wrong. Not for when its all OK - or just jogging along

 

So this gives you a first class opportunity to engage carefully with the architect, and turn the whole matter on its head. Pitch it as a joint issue that needs to be worked through together.

Success here often forges  much deeper, more meaningful understanding.

• What's the architect's point of view?
• Put the horse in front of the cart - what's (was so far)  missing from the dialogue?
• Does the architect know what you think?
• People are allowed to make mistakes. They are normal. And so are yours. If you are to work together plan for mistakes together
• Listen deeply. 
• If you must part, then do so respectfully and on good terms. Its a really small world.

Have a quick look at this. Its meant kindly, and I apologise in advance if you're already aware of it. Other readers may not be.

Good luck

Ian

[Drellingore]

@ToughButterCup ha, you remind me so much of my old business partner (who I regard highly). He's basically an 'organisational therapist' now  I do generally agree with the suggested approach, and it's what I'd do at work.

[twice round the block]

1 hour ago, Drellingore said:

 

 

 we have the opportunity to convert our suburban townhouse into an HMO which could bring in about £3-4k a month.

Converting for HMO is not without it's challenges and the specifications that have to be adhered too.

[Drellingore]

6 minutes ago, twice round the block said:

Converting for HMO is not without it's challenges and the specifications that have to be adhered too.

 

Aye! Three or four identical houses on our road have done it, so it's definitely within the realms of the possible. Planning might be harder now, though.

[Alan Ambrose]

A couple more thoughts:

 

+ a lot of small businesses are not great at the client stuff. In some cases, you have to manage them. Maybe the quality of the work is so good that you’re prepared to do that - including negotiating their fees.

+ it may be that they don’t really want to do the next bit and this is their way of telling you ‘we’d rather not’.

+ 440m^2 is huge even if you’ve got 8 kids. Maybe you won't actually like to live in something that big.

+ we have a ‘two-barn’ design too - one with bedrooms and bathrooms, one with everything else. It’s occurred to me recently that it would be better to have two smaller plant rooms with the relevant plant in the right place - all DHW, for instance, in the bedroom barn. I also plan to use multiple CUs, hubs etc.

+ stage 4 is tech design? It’s worth probing what level of skill your architects have in this. Maybe go out for competitive quotes with other tech designers?

[North80]

One of the biggest variables in the cost of any project is being able to find decent tradesmen that charge a reasonable amount of money. 

 

The architect must just be guessing how much the tradesmen will work for, if you can only find tradesmen who will work for rip-off prices then the build cost will be higher, if you can find some that will work for an honest reasonable price the build cost will be lower. 

 

I don't know how the architect can predict that. They must just be erring on the side of caution and assuming you will only be able to find rip-off tradesmen.

[JohnMo]

Just now, North80 said:

architect must just be guessing how much the tradesmen will work for

They use a look up table, for indicative build costs. 

[Drellingore]

Ta all. Having started to dig into things a bit, we have a lot of glazing, so we might need to scale that back. 

[Kelvin]

All good advice but regardless they are saying it’s now going to cost double the original estimate. How can a professional who does this for a living and has access to up to date costs plus data from other work be so far out? Either something significant has changed in the design, a lot of time has gone by from the original estimate, they made a mistake, incompetence, or sharp practice. 
 

You need to break it down into its component parts and start getting quotes and figure out what you can do yourself (albeit you then need to factor in time) You need to make some decisions on quality/cost engineering such as what are the expensive elements that are nice to haves vs they are integral to what you absolutely want. Can you achieve the look, design, or performance in a different way. From reading the forum these last three or four years most of us end up having to do that anyway. My main example of that is we wanted the garage to be a mini version of the house which is what the planning approval is for. However, once we got started it was quickly very clear that it was going to cost far too much money. A tiny part of me regrets not doing it however.