Jeremy Harris Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 There are several threads here discussing buying from elsewhere in Europe, because you get better value, and, in some cases, a greater choice or better quality products. I've just been looking at the price for a part for our MVHR, a "Sommerbox" that is a 5 minute slot-in replacement for the heat exchanger to gain better cooling in the summer. I got hold of the part number from Genvex (who are always very helpful, BTW) but Genvex don't sell direct so I asked two of their suppliers for prices. Here are the prices for comparison: UK supplier - unit price £174.00 inc VAT for the part, plus £30.00 inc VAT for delivery, giving a total of £204.00 inc VAT Danish supplier - unit price £128.82 inc, VAT for the part plus £62.48 inc VAT for delivery, giving a total of £191.40 inc VAT Now this was a VAT reclaimable item (I think), so the ex VAT prices including delivery would be: UK supplier - total price = £170.00 Danish supplier - total price = £153.12 Looking at just the unit price, ex-VAT, as the Danish supplier has to charge more for delivery to the UK, whereas the UK supplier presumably gets better rates for bulk shipment, then the prices are: UK supplier - part only price, ex-VAT = £145.00 Danish supplier - part only price, ex-VAT = £103.06 Given that both the UK and the Danish supplier are authorised Genvex dealers, and so are almost certainly getting the same sort of price from Genvex, what's the justification for the UK unit price being 40% higher than the Danish supplier price? My understanding is that the cost of living, doing business etc in Denmark is similar to the UK, may even be a bit higher, as their VAT rate is 25%, rather than our 20%. The only conclusion I can reach is that the UK supplier is upping the price because they can, which is most probably because people aren't shopping around to get a better price. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 Is there a local (ie, UK or UK+Ireland) distributor involved? I got the distinct impression with at least some high-cost items that there was an extra layer of distribution to the UK. So our rooflight, for example, had to come via a trade outlet ( I think Travis Perkins, of all places, did the best price), but we figured out exactly what we needed to order by talking to the UK distributor. If I'd sourced the rooflight direct from Poland, the seller would have sourced the product direct from the factory rather than via an intermediate distributor. I might be wrong, but I got the feeling it was the same with our MVHR. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 (edited) In the last 8 months there has been a 15% variation (fall of GBP) in exchange rate GBP vs Euro, which could account for a good deal of that difference, depending on timings. Perhaps the delivery charge to the UK supplier from the Danish manufacturer is higher than Danish to Danish? Or do Genvex have a UK branch warehouse? (Now I want a pastry) Ferdinand Edited June 14, 2016 by Ferdinand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 52 minutes ago, Ferdinand said: In the last 8 months there has been a 15% variation (fall of GBP) in exchange rate GBP vs Euro, which could account for a good deal of that difference, depending on timings. Nearly all the big ticket items I bought were bought 9-18 mths ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted June 14, 2016 Author Share Posted June 14, 2016 There could be valid reasons, yes, except for the Euro, as Denmark is outside the Eurozone, so prices are in Danish Krone. These are the same two Genvex suppliers that I've compared before. In the previous case, for the purchase of the unit in December 2013, the variation was a lot greater: UK supplier - £8,230, including delivery and VAT, £6,858.33 total, ex-VAT Danish supplier - £5,044.16 inc delivery and VAT, £4,035.33 total, ex-VAT In the case of the purchase of the whole unit, the UK delivery charge was £248 + VAT, the Danish delivery charge was £112.10 + VAT, which is just bonkers - how can it cost more than double to deliver it within the UK than it did to deliver it from Denmark? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheMitchells Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 It does seem ridiculous and should give us all the incentive to check round and try the suppliers direct. though I doubt many of us have the same confidence in doing so that you have Jeremy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted June 14, 2016 Author Share Posted June 14, 2016 If I'm honest, I found the first purchase from outside the UK a bit worrying, but that experience was very positive. The supplier really wanted to do business, was very efficient and spoke and wrote perfect English (it was a Dutch company). The next purchase from Europe was the MVHR, where my experience was very similar; excellent customer service and no language problems. We went on to buy some appliances from Germany, and once again found the standard of service to be better than that of many UK suppliers. Overall I'd strongly suggest shopping around, at least within Europe, as it is, if anything, a better experience than trying to deal with some UK suppliers. I lost count of the number of suppliers who just failed to get back to us with quotes, all of them from the UK. My limited experience has been that the European suppliers have been far more helpful. It's not just house-related stuff, either. Many years ago I wanted a bike rack to fit the first Toyota Prius I bought, in 2005. Toyota Netherlands had one listed, but Toyota GB could not (or would not) supply it, even though it was actually made in the UK and approved by Toyota! The UK manufacturer couldn't sell it directly, as they only made the product for sale to Toyota. I telephoned a random Toyota dealer in the Netherlands and asked if they could sell me one and ship it to the UK. They went out of their way to both get the rack and arrange shipping to the UK, including getting the fitting instructions translated into English. Perhaps if more people shopped around and complained about the generally poor service from some UK suppliers things might change, or is that just me being overly optimistic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barney12 Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 18 minutes ago, JSHarris said: If I'm honest, I found the first purchase from outside the UK a bit worrying, but that experience was very positive. The supplier really wanted to do business, was very efficient and spoke and wrote perfect English (it was a Dutch company). My experience of European countries is that their command of our language puts us to shame. Germany and the Netherlands, Denmark and Sweden in particular. Even the taxi drivers speak good English which is more than can be said for 99% of the Uber taxi's in this country! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worldwidewebs Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 To be fair, I got a UK price for the Genvex Premium 2 of £5,550 delivered - about £500 more than from Denmark from memory. Ignore list prices - there's always a deal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 Danish Kroner movement was similar to the Euro. But I think the shop-around point is valid, so it is not worth a debate on a minor aspect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted June 14, 2016 Author Share Posted June 14, 2016 34 minutes ago, worldwidewebs said: To be fair, I got a UK price for the Genvex Premium 2 of £5,550 delivered - about £500 more than from Denmark from memory. Ignore list prices - there's always a deal The price I got (both times) was a written quote, I don't think they give prices unless you ask for a quote, do they? If they have seen sense and brought their prices more in line with other suppliers then that's a good thing, but then again it's still a fair bit cheaper for me to buy the Sommerbox from Denmark, even with the expensive shipping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
worldwidewebs Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 I met them on a stand at the NEC show recently and when they asked if there was anything they could help with I just told them I wanted a Premium 2 and that I could get it from Denmark or Czech Republic for £xxxx and that if they wanted a sale they should call/email me the following week with their best price. I got an email a few days later. I haven't followed it up yet though as I'm not sure whether to go that route or normal MVHR with and arrange cooling in another way. Out of interest, what cooling do you get from the Sommerbox? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ferdinand Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 If we vote for Brexit some people are alleging that Sterling will be taking a 20-25% tumble on June 24th, so you may want to buy currency forward. If you have a big order going through after the Referendum, consider your options. I guess that the risk of a Remain rise may be less than that of a Brexit tumble so buying forward may be the better of the 2 options. There will probably be a bounce in few days or weeks later, so you may be OK if you can wait. Up until yesterday you could place a cancellable without charge advance order with Moneycorp, which provided protection, but it was mentioned on HeadforPoints and then vanished as there was a spike in orders :-). I have yet to find anything similar, though you could possibly play games with ordering and cancelling and reordering, or using online purchase refund rights under the Distance Selling Regulations. Ferdinand Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted June 14, 2016 Author Share Posted June 14, 2016 1 hour ago, worldwidewebs said: I met them on a stand at the NEC show recently and when they asked if there was anything they could help with I just told them I wanted a Premium 2 and that I could get it from Denmark or Czech Republic for £xxxx and that if they wanted a sale they should call/email me the following week with their best price. I got an email a few days later. I haven't followed it up yet though as I'm not sure whether to go that route or normal MVHR with and arrange cooling in another way. Out of interest, what cooling do you get from the Sommerbox? They chased me up to see if I was going to buy, around three months or so after sending me the quote, and I told them openly that I'd bought the same unit from Denmark for a very much lower price than they had quoted. I'm not sure how much difference it will make, but I've been told that it reduces the flow resistance a great deal when fitted (because it completely replaces the heat exchanger unit), as well as decreasing the temperature into the cooling part a bit, so it seems to be worth the relatively modest cost, even if it just increases the air flow rates in summer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted June 14, 2016 Author Share Posted June 14, 2016 1 hour ago, Ferdinand said: If we vote for Brexit some people are alleging that Sterling will be taking a 20-25% tumble on June 24th, so you may want to buy currency forward. If you have a big order going through after the Referendum, consider your options. I guess that the risk of a Remain rise may be less than that of a Brexit tumble so buying forward may be the better of the 2 options. There will probably be a bounce in few days or weeks later, so you may be OK if you can wait. Up until yesterday you could place a cancellable without charge advance order with Moneycorp, which provided protection, but it was mentioned on HeadforPoints and then vanished as there was a spike in orders :-). I have yet to find anything similar, though you could possibly play games with ordering and cancelling and reordering, or using online purchase refund rights under the Distance Selling Regulations. Ferdinand I've been wading through the claim and counter-claim of all the financial predictions and frankly I don't trust any of them. The assumption by the "remain" lot seems to be that we will try our damnedest after a decision to leave to drive our own economy into the ground, which seems absurd. On the other hand, the "leave" lot are making assumptions about savings from not contributing to the EU that seem bonkers, so I don't trust their numbers either. What I'm pretty sure of is that whichever way the decision goes, there will be a tremendous amount of effort put in to reducing the financial impact, and given our ability to be "creative" when it comes to dealing with the nation's finances I have no doubt whatsoever that the predictions being made now will turn out to be complete and utter hogwash. As mentioned in another thread, I am pretty sure that this vote won't be decided on the basis of any rational analysis by voters of the relative financial benefits or costs, it will almost certainly come down to personal, probably single issue, reasons for voting in or out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
reddal Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 10 minutes ago, JSHarris said: this vote won't be decided on the basis of any rational analysis by voters of the relative financial benefits or costs, it will almost certainly come down to personal, probably single issue, reasons for voting in or out. My prediction - England gets kicked out of Euro 2016 later this week after further violence - and this leads to a decisive swing towards the Leave side... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted June 14, 2016 Author Share Posted June 14, 2016 Just now, reddal said: My prediction - England gets kicked out of Euro 2016 later this week after further violence - and this leads to a decisive swing towards the Leave side... That wouldn't surprise me in the least. If I was extremely cynical (in the light of comments made by Russian officials apparently supporting the actions of their "Ultras" against English supporters) I might take a view that Russia sees the UK leaving the EU as a significant benefit, in terms of weakening it and so giving them a tighter grip on countries with EU leanings, like the Ukraine............................... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger440 Posted June 14, 2016 Share Posted June 14, 2016 As alluded to above, currency rates can have an influence, but id suggest the root cause is they didn't get a very good deal as the UK distributor! Either that or they are working on mad margins (as in big) That said, as i know only too well, costs in this country are high, not least premises and wages. The difference in costs between us here and my polish counterpart are quite amazing. Even their shipping costs are half ours despite using the same company. Im comparing the cost of shipping to poland and their cost to send here. Our cost of rent and rates, frankly is bonkers. But what choice do i have. Move to Poland or similar is the obvious answer, but im afraid thats not for me.................. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeeJunFan Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 I think it's really down to charge what you can and do get paid. There is a mentality that people wont shop around and if a product is sold at a price and sales are at a decent level then prices will remain high. If you have poor sales prices will fall. The market finds its own level. People in other countries are simply not prepared to pay as high a price and the savy UK shopper will look around and get the deal, others will either not look or just stick to what they know. Even some of the prices within the UK are odd. Foe example the cost of concrete in NI compared to England. My blocks cost .36p and I've seen people here paying upwards of £1. Also being part of Ireland and dealing with 2 currency zones on a daily basis i can see how the same products are sold at some very strange price variations. Even simple things like nappies. Currency fluctuations have brought things closer together but still some weird differences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 I can't see exchange rates as the cause for higher UK prices. The item still has to get from its factory in whatever country, to the UK and is therefore subject to exchange rate transactions. If anything, going via a third country could add another exchange rate transaction and commission, so logically that ought to be a more expensive option, not a cheaper one. The transport one also bugs me a LOT. A lot of couriers charge a big premium to ship something north of Glasgow / Edinburgh. It has been the cause of many lost deals, when a particular supplier will not even entertain the idea of using a different courier that does not charge silly money to deliver here. They are so stubborn, that's the courier we use take it or leave it, so I usually leave it. One can only conclude they have plenty of business without us in the far north. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 Can't you arrange your own transport if your location is a problem. I think that one of the problems in the UK is property prices/rental prices/business rates (as mentioned before). We also have the banks to deal with, and they charge for just about everything, and the charges are not cheap. What needs to happen, in my opinion, is that suppliers have to start to cooperate more. This is how eBay works. eBay is the shop window, then each supplier strikes there own deal. I find it barmy that near where I live there are about 5 large building suppliers, plus a good B&Q, then a couple of 'old hardware' type places. And this is in an area that is financially depressed, and apart from the small RedRow development going on, not a lot of building is happening (regardless of what the local builders say). So all those BMs are probably working at a loss, regardless of the prices they charge. But I also think that many self/small builders are their own worse enemy. They tend to lack planning skills, assume that what ever they want is available the next day, fail to research the local market for new suppliers etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Crofter Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 2 hours ago, ProDave said: The transport one also bugs me a LOT. A lot of couriers charge a big premium to ship something north of Glasgow / Edinburgh. It has been the cause of many lost deals, when a particular supplier will not even entertain the idea of using a different courier that does not charge silly money to deliver here. They are so stubborn, that's the courier we use take it or leave it, so I usually leave it. One can only conclude they have plenty of business without us in the far north. I feel like giving you an 'amen' to that! Out here it's even worse- I often get things delivered to friends in Inverness because it works out easier and cheaper. When we lived on Lewis it was worse again. The incident that sticks in my mind is when I bought a very small boat part, basically a little stainless fitting that any welder could knock up in 2mins. Cost £20, which I thought was bad enough, but then the supplier Fedexed it up to me and then demanded an extra £30 for the delivery. In disgust I sent it back to him in a jiffy bag for 66p and demanded a refund. He refused to even consider using Royal Mail and claimed that none of his own mail went with them, not even from his office, and nor did he or any of his staff drive past a post box at any point, ever. Some people just don't want your business! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 how can it cost more than double to deliver it within the UK than it did to deliver it from Denmark? Many small distributors don't carry stock. They "drop ship" direct from the manufacturer. So if they are made across the channel you might be paying for delivery from the manufacturer rather than from the UK distributors office. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jack Posted June 15, 2016 Share Posted June 15, 2016 I seem to recall that our MVHR was shipped from the warehouse of our supplier's competitor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jeremy Harris Posted June 15, 2016 Author Share Posted June 15, 2016 Ours was shipped from a warehouse in Denmark, at the supplier. So it travelled from the Danish manufacturer to the Danish suppliers warehouse and was then shipped on a special delivery pallet to the UK, all for less than half the cost of the UK suppliers shipping charge. Assuming the UK supplier just drop ships from the Danish factory, then I'd have expected a delivery charge the same as, or slightly less than, the special delivery pallet delivery we had from the Danish supplier. As mentioned before, I don't think that Denmark is a particularly cheap place to do business, as they have relatively high taxation and living costs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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