alman Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 We have recently purchased an 1873 terraced house with original flint tiles roof. We had to do some internal sanitasing jobs and we have not moved in yet. Last week we went to finish some jobs and found our next door neighbour replacing their roof with some sort of plastic/composite tiles. Without any warning of any planned work, we found her roofers on our roof. Part of the original flint tiles on our roof had been removed. We talked to the roofers and to the neighbour and asked about party wall agreement, building control, etc. They tried to convince us nothing of this sort was needed and that we should be grateful that they are re-tiling part of our roof. Whilst we understand the roof may not be in its prime, we had no leaks, no problems. The roofers tried to convince us to change now our part of the roof too, quoting £9k, a discounted rate since they were already on the roof. Nevertheless, we do not have the funds and have no reason to prioritise this and we refused. We are unhappy with the fact that without consultation we had part of our tiles removed. Also with the fact that the bonding was installed on our part of the roof, not on the demarcation line of the properties. The bonding was installed in a busy area with chimneys and at the edge of our dormer. The likelihood of leaks is now high. We talked to the neighbour and provided her with the phone number of the council's building controllers. She said she could not go through therefore we called them and they confirmed there should have been an approval in place, a party wall agreement and building regs have to be adhered to. They promised to send someone to inspect, however the roofers have now "finished" their job and we do not know whether they've done a good job. It certainly doesn't look like it. They installed a secret valley, however this appears to be only from our dormer down. Our tiles linked to the valley are at a strange angle. There does not appear to be any valley installed at the back. Any advice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alman Posted June 2 Author Share Posted June 2 I attach photos of how we discovered the roof was being replaced. Our house is at the right, the one with the dormer. The demarcation line between the properties is at the left of the downpipe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 Although this is wrong frankly tiling up to your dormer is a better method IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 Don't suppose you are in a conservation area or other historic protection area? I'd say local planning authority might have something to say about ripping off 150year old slates and replacing with composite. What happened to the slates they removed? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russdl Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 I’m no roofer but surely those tiles will be gone in the next storm? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SteamyTea Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 (edited) Both my neighbours had roof work done (unnecessarily) over the last couple of years. I seem to remember that roofs are not covered by the party wall agreement, and on terraces they are allowed to lift some of the other tiles. https://www.desmondeassociates.co.uk/news/serving-a-party-wall-act-1996-notice-cornwall-uk#:~:text=Re-roofing Party Wall Act,any upcoming works as courtesy. Edited June 2 by SteamyTea 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 https://www.lawinsider.com/dictionary/party-roof#:~:text=Each wall%2C roof%2C fence%2C,regarding party walls or party 🤷♂️ I am sure most don’t bother 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ProDave Posted June 2 Share Posted June 2 I certainly would have grabbed a good number of those slates they ripped off before they got skipped, if nothing else so if you get anybody to improve things you have the material. If the builders had said anything i would just tell them I am reclaiming the ones they took off my roof. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tetrarch Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 That "secret valley" looks very much like a sheet of plywood from your photo! Have you been up To take a look and take some close-up photos Regards Tet Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alman Posted June 3 Author Share Posted June 3 16 hours ago, Conor said: Don't suppose you are in a conservation area or other historic protection area? I'd say local planning authority might have something to say about ripping off 150year old slates and replacing with composite. What happened to the slates they removed? We are actually in a conservation area. Building control said they needed to have applied for authorisation. I do not know where this is going. Our concern is that we complained to the neighbour, she appears to be nice but says speak to my roofers. She's given them our number (which we're not that happy about) and they are calling asking how to put it right. We have no idea what to say. We said to them to put back our old tiles and move the bonding to the demarcation line of the properties, however we do not know if this is a good idea any more as we do not trust them. Another question mark for us is whether there should be secret valleys on both sides of the house and from the top to the bottom. We are assuming so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Conor Posted June 3 Share Posted June 3 19 minutes ago, alman said: We are actually in a conservation area. Building control said they needed to have applied for authorisation. I do not know where this is going. Our concern is that we complained to the neighbour, she appears to be nice but says speak to my roofers. She's given them our number (which we're not that happy about) and they are calling asking how to put it right. We have no idea what to say. We said to them to put back our old tiles and move the bonding to the demarcation line of the properties, however we do not know if this is a good idea any more as we do not trust them. Another question mark for us is whether there should be secret valleys on both sides of the house and from the top to the bottom. We are assuming so. Don't be speaking to the roofers. It's the responsibility of your neighbour to ensure work is done correctly. There is no way re-slating with composite slates falls under permitted development. Say this to your neighbour that not only is the work not good enough, but that they are likely not compliant with planning or building control. Give them the opportunity to set it right. High chance the roof will need to be completely redone with natural slates... Gonna cost them a lot so tread gently 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alman Posted June 3 Author Share Posted June 3 50 minutes ago, Conor said: Don't be speaking to the roofers. It's the responsibility of your neighbour to ensure work is done correctly. There is no way re-slating with composite slates falls under permitted development. Say this to your neighbour that not only is the work not good enough, but that they are likely not compliant with planning or building control. Give them the opportunity to set it right. High chance the roof will need to be completely redone with natural slates... Gonna cost them a lot so tread gently Thank you very much for your advice, we will certainly follow it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alman Posted June 4 Author Share Posted June 4 On 03/06/2024 at 08:34, Conor said: Don't be speaking to the roofers. It's the responsibility of your neighbour to ensure work is done correctly. There is no way re-slating with composite slates falls under permitted development. Say this to your neighbour that not only is the work not good enough, but that they are likely not compliant with planning or building control. Give them the opportunity to set it right. High chance the roof will need to be completely redone with natural slates... Gonna cost them a lot so tread gently Further development. Our neighbour is saying she is happy with the work, the whole thing gives her anxiety. She wants us to meet with her and the roofer to close the matter, she is now saying she is allowing building regs. I have not heard back from Building Control, I cannot get through to them any more, I keep getting a recorded message "someone from the council tried to call you, we will call you back shortly". We had asked for a warranty from the roofer, and we received by email a zero-value invoice. There is no text in the body of the email (from a gmail address) and the invoice only contains our details and a reference number. there is no company name, address, contact person or number. A search on companies house shows there is no company under the name used in the email address. We are now told that it is a sole trader, not a company and our neighbour has no contract, she has sent us a copy of a leaflet received by post. We asked to see their insurance, nothing is forthcoming. We called the Citizens Advice Bureau and got through to some national line, as CAB only works 2 days a week for a couple of hours. They advised to claim negligence against the roofers. 1 - we do not have the details of the roofers, a certain Joe using a trade name that cannot be found online. 2 - this was not some damage done by mistake, it was a deliberate decision to ignore our rights and replace our tiles Our neighbour is saying she will consider the matter closed, she is going on holiday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bassanclan Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 You don't have any complaint against the roofer, you have no contract with them. They are working for your neighbour and that is who you have a problem with. She is easy to track down! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 Whether she is stressed or not it’s her responsibility, plod on with building control it’s their decision. If they decide it’s not right they will deal with it. Ignorance if the law is no excuse. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelvin Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 Check what legal cover you have with your house insurance. I agree with the comment that the leading edge of your tiles don’t look like they’d survive the first high wind blowing in the right direction. You probably ought to get a professional survey done that way you’ll have something in writing rather than just your opinion. You aren’t going to get anywhere with the roofer for the time-being. Priority number 1 is to secure your roof though regardless of anything else as you don’t want any other problems. This will cost some money hence why you need to speak with your house insurance company. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alman Posted June 4 Author Share Posted June 4 14 minutes ago, Kelvin said: Check what legal cover you have with your house insurance. I agree with the comment that the leading edge of your tiles don’t look like they’d survive the first high wind blowing in the right direction. You probably ought to get a professional survey done that way you’ll have something in writing rather than just your opinion. You aren’t going to get anywhere with the roofer for the time-being. Priority number 1 is to secure your roof though regardless of anything else as you don’t want any other problems. This will cost some money hence why you need to speak with your house insurance company. Thank you, we were trying to avoid this but we have no choice now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blooda Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 You may also, kindly, suggest to your neighbour they get that Flue / Chimney checked out by HETAS registered company, urgently. It's hard to say from the photo what they have done, but it does not look right, as if they have just left it in place, and it has moved, whilst they were reroofing. They may have broken a seal, and judging by the info on this thread, they may no be bothered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
joe90 Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 Are those two flues yours or your neighbours? The front one is strapped to your dormer! Using Mortor to waterproof to slate is not a good idea, lead flashing would be better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Ambrose Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 Oh dear, that’s very tough considering you have not even moved in yet. I think I would: - track down the roofers - addresses, vehicle reg, trading names etc. It’s fantastic that you have pictures of them and their work. - pay for a professional evaluation and costing to bring the work up to standard. - write a calm but firm letter to both your neighbour and the roofers and enclose the report and costing. Ask for this amount of cash to have the problems rectified. Get a solicitor to do this if you’re not sure. - get your part of the roof fixed. - in parallel, if the funds are not forthcoming, sue in the county court for the cost of the work and the report - probably both parties joined in one case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blooda Posted June 4 Share Posted June 4 1 hour ago, Alan Ambrose said: - track down the roofers - addresses, vehicle reg, trading names etc. It’s fantastic that you have pictures of them and their work. There is a sign in Photo, hanging on the scaffold, if you have any photos from a different angle it may show the name and phone number clearly. That sign will definitely not be a scaffold company sign, no scaffold company would put their name to that 💩. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alman Posted June 6 Author Share Posted June 6 Update: neighbour is off on holiday, no contact with the roofers as really we have no contract and connection with them. We called our insurers - we have legal cover included. Speaking with their legal advisers it appears we have no claim to make as there is no loss (yet). No loss, no claim to the courts either. They said min 12 months wait to get near to a small claim court and even if we win it may be a couple of hundreds if there is no loss. Our cost to get there would be higher than the amount we would win. It appears that property rights are not respected and the legislative aparatus is useless when it comes to private property. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alan Ambrose Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 What they mean - like a lot of insurers - (guess what) is that they would rather not fulfil their contract with you by paying out on their legal service. Yes, you don’t have a financial loss yet, but you have (fairly deliberate) property damage to the value of whatever you are quoted to put the job right. Part of your argument is that it will be cheaper to fix the problem now than fix the problem later along with the cost of the inevitable water damage. Supposing someone had carelessly backed into your car. Yeah, you don’t have any financial loss. Duh, well except for the cost of fixing the damage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelvin Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 Plus you have identified a potential weakness in that these tiles could come off and hit someone/you. In any event, putting the legal position to one side for the moment, it’s in your interest to have this surveyed and affect any necessary remedial action to make good regardless who ultimately pays for it. But on the legal side use their words against them. They’ve said there’s no loss so no claim. A survey identifying what remediation needs to be done and a quote for the work constitutes a loss so do that and go back to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Temp Posted June 6 Share Posted June 6 Probably too late but I would raid the skip and recover as many of your tiles as you can in case they come in handy for repairs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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