Experience….

[scottishjohn]

6 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

We vaulted one half of the area upstairs and raised the ceiling height in our bedroom. It’s coombed too we left it all open on one side so the angled ceiling meets the outside wall rather than creating wasted pointless cupboard space we’d never use. Heb Homes standard upstairs layout wastes a lot of space and creates long narrow bedrooms which is  a common problem with room in roof designs. 

we are all guessing here unti lwe see a plan of some sort -which brings me back to suggestion that all they have so far is outline planning .

which makes me think they have no chance of starting  inaugust  this year ,by the time its gone back and forward to planning +BC etc

 we just coming up nicel y to holiday time for the planning staff  even maybe the architect

 and then getting a date from ground works men etc .

there will always be delays 

Edited May 28 by scottishjohn

[Kelvin]

Very true. 
 

Here’s some pictures of what we did to make what would have been smallish rooms feel much bigger. The bedroom is 5.2m x 4.4m with a 2.5m ceiling height. The sitting room is a similar kind of size in an L shape but is 2.9m to the ridge beam. The coomb picture shows how much is lost given Heb Homes do this in both sides albeit I built ours 100mm further into the room to give is more flat wall space behind the bed. 
 

 

 

 

Edited May 28 by Kelvin

[Dunc]

bit off topic but @Kelvin can I ask what size velux you have in those upstaris areas and what heights are the  short and tall (false) coombs?

[Kelvin]

Velux 1600mm x 942mm. Top hung and 3G. They are very heavy. 

 

500mm and 1390mm from floor to where the ceiling starts to curve. 

We are building a full height/width wardrobe on the gable end wall of the bedroom which is partly why we did what we did. 

 

 

 

Edited May 28 by Kelvin

[G and J]

We are bungalow gobbling, and next door on one side (the one whose juice cable droops over ours) is a small two storey house, so we are replicating that which means no need for or advantage in having chamfered ceilings.  We’ve owned properties with them and they do have their charm, but the look we are going for suits rectangles.  
 

We’re also rather traditional in the bedroom upstairs thing, but also our rear facing bedroom will get the morning sun and we’ll sit in bed drinking coffee looking straight out of the windows onto a little oasis of quiet, leafy back gardens.  It’s an important part of the day for us.

 

We won’t be starting in August partly because we’ve a planning condition that says we can’t (unless we get an ecologist to write a report promising that no feathered beings will be hurt in the making of this self build) and even if we didn’t have that we want to sell our house before we start.

 

Sooooo, we’ve got time for me to agonise over everything - which is bad news for some perhaps but I am grateful as I am learning tons.  🙂

[G and J]

1 hour ago, Kelvin said:

Very true. 
 

Here’s some pictures of what we did to make what would have been smallish rooms feel much bigger. The bedroom is 5.2m x 4.4m with a 2.5m ceiling height. The sitting room is a similar kind of size in an L shape but is 2.9m to the ridge beam. The coomb picture shows how much is lost given Heb Homes do this in both sides albeit I built ours 100mm further into the room to give is more flat wall space behind the bed. 
 

 

That’s exactly the arrangement.  Who needs a tv in the bedroom when one can sit watching the garden.

[Crofter]

11 hours ago, G and J said:

Current thinking is 140mm frame with 120mm insulation between to give service void.

Where does your vapour barrier go in this design?

Do you need 140mm for structural reasons? Surely it would make more sense to use 120mm frame and then create the service void using battens on top. That gives you somewhere to put the vapour barrier.

With the 140mm frame you'd be drilling holes right at the edge of the studs anyway to run cables so that would affect the strength.

 

 

11 hours ago, G and J said:

We will need another insulation layer but I’m a bit confused about whether that goes inside or outside the frame and sheathing board.

Ideally you want a continuous insulation layer to prevent thermal bridging. This can be either inside or outside the frame. I chose inside because to me it makes me sense from a condensation risk perspective, where the continuous insulation was PIR and the frame was filled with rock wool.

 

11 hours ago, G and J said:

Baton and counter baton the larch cladding

Just FYI we did this too, used 25mm battens and 50mm counter battens, then board on board cladding with 20mm planks, so the total thickness of the cladding and battens is 115mm.

I considered using 25mm for the counter battens but at 600mm centres there was too much flex and bounce, and I didn't fancy trying to nail on to them.

 

11 hours ago, G and J said:

 

 

[Gus Potter]

On 22/05/2024 at 11:35, G and J said:

So, I’m looking to benefit from other peoples’ hindsight.

Good post. A few observations...may or may not help.

 

I've got two particular contractors on my books that are good old school, do a quality job and reliable. One is handing over the business to their daughter the other to their son. Both can stick build TF's and prettty quickly.

 

They are straight up and believe in a fair days work for a fair days pay. I've said to both the younger ones who are very competant.. keep the family ethos and I'll shove as much work as you need your way. Just don't take the piss.. stick to your family values and you will make a good living out of it,  I've got plenty Clients that are prepared to pay for a fair days work etc. Their dad's are not scaping the barrel here financially by the way and have a long list of satisfied customers.

 

I say to the youngsters.. yes you will need to compete for the work.. but when you lose a job I'll tell you where you went wrong. Also I'll do a bit of pre vetting on the Clients so it reduces the risk of you getting ripped off so that can make you even more competetive. To be blunt if I think a Clinet is a bit ropey then there is no way I'll expose the builders I trust without warning them.

 

The rest of the chancers can swim with the sharks. That said I'm always happy to meet you Contractors that are up and coming and will often give them a chance as I was given when I started out as a young Contractor.

 

It will take to time to find these types of reliable folk.. they are not the cheapest but in the round what you lose on the swings you get back on the roundabouts and often more.. like thousands!

 

I've made other posts on stick frames.. explore the cost and savings, a couple of good joiners and a labourer can build you a cracking quality timber frame. That's how I used to do it and most of the Contractors I work with on extensions and self builds do it this way.. because it tends to be cheaper and that is how we all win the work.. I advocate organisation, simplicity and cost.

 

In the old days we had a rough spec from the SE and Architect re the timber frame and just got on with it. Now I'm an SE I go out and inspect TF by some of the big suppliers and find so much wrong with them I wonder.. why are folk paying for this as self builders?

 

In summary try and find a local firm that can knock up a TF and a designer that will do what I do.. You'll need to pay more for someone like me.. but the savings I can make far outweight the fee I charge.

 

See what that cost is for the bare frame knocked up on site if you buy the materials.. not the nails and the gas for the nail gun etc and then compare what say MBC or Scot Frame are offering.

 

Now you have a base price then you can see what you need to pay as an extra to get a more "packaged design" and make sure that any reduction in the lenght of build time is really worth the extra cost.

 

Now when you weigh up the above you can maybe see how just a masonry cavity wall construction is appealing. It's got less to do with the materials and more to do with the hassle! But get it right and a TF is just as attractive.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[SteamyTea]

Not read in detail all this.

But you do not have to achieve minimum U-Values for every component.

So you can over compensate where you can i.e. floors, roofs, front and rear walls maybe, doors and windows.

The goal is to reduce energy usage, not just improve bragging rights.

 

Forget aerogel, what is sold as a building product is not the same as the tiles on a reusable space shuttle.

PIR is probably your friend here and don't get sucked into thinking that lack of 'mass' in the walls will be a problem.

[Sparrowhawk]

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

PIR is probably your friend here and don't get sucked into thinking that lack of 'mass' in the walls will be a problem.

 

Have we got a good (definitive?) thread on Buildhub re 'mass', as I was going in circles over this picking glassfibre insulation. E.g. for loft insulation will 40kg/m2 make a difference over 11kg/m2, which will be better than 8kg/m2?

 

Don't want to derail this thread so if there isn't one to point to, let's start a new thread on the subject.

[G and J]

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

 

PIR is probably your friend here and don't get sucked into thinking that lack of 'mass' in the walls will be a problem.

I think that the u values type analysis will help yield a sensible balance between insulating/cost/wall thickness.  Where I am less sure is the acoustic performance of the walls.

[G and J]

13 minutes ago, Sparrowhawk said:

Don't want to derail this thread so if there isn't one to point to, let's start a new thread on the subject.

Derail away.  I feel it’s one of the most powerful aspects of this forum, I’ve learnt so much following many diversions.  

[SteamyTea]

19 minutes ago, Sparrowhawk said:

Have we got a

Have a look at my blogs, I cover it a bit.

 

The biggest problem is there is so much prejudice in the UK against anything that is not brick, block or concrete.

Makes me wonder why we have such thermally inefficient housing.

[SteamyTea]

10 minutes ago, G and J said:

Where I am less sure is the acoustic performance of the walls.

Your best bet is probably blown cellulose.

Ask anyone that has it.

[G and J]

21 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Your best bet is probably blown cellulose.

Ask anyone that has it.

Will read up on it. Thank you. 

[G and J]

24 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Have a look at my blogs, I cover it a bit.

 

The biggest problem is there is so much prejudice in the UK against anything that is not brick, block or concrete.

Makes me wonder why we have such thermally inefficient housing.

Will have a rifle through your blog too.  
 

When we planned our build in ‘91 I was adamant I wanted it built properly with block and render.  None of that namby pamby balsa wood stuff that the cheapy volume builders bodge it with.  
 

The (sort of) architects used some stud walling upstairs to remove the need for steel. During the build I realised with a shock just how weak block work is.  I’m happy with timber frame this time. 

[saveasteading]

Here's my take. Thermal mass is great as it helps to even out the temperatures in extremes. It is especially good at catching extreme heat in summer and in hot places.

However in UK we really need to keep expensive heat inside the building, rather than heat the structure. So we provide an insulated box which can be made of anything. Mass outside the box helps but is not critical.

Fridges and freezers are a good reverse example: they don't need mass.

[Kelvin]

1 hour ago, G and J said:

I think that the u values type analysis will help yield a sensible balance between insulating/cost/wall thickness.  Where I am less sure is the acoustic performance of the walls.

Everyone that’s been in our house has commented on how quiet it is. The sparky was in the other day finishing some stuff off and mentioned how quiet it is compared to any house he’s been in. Both outwith the house and within. I don’t have a direct comparison but our garage is metal with 80mm PIR sandwich. It’s obviously built very differently and isn’t sealed for airtightness other than what the construction achieves. You can pretty much hear everything that’s outside just as clearly as if you were outside. However it doesn’t heat up much in the hottest days and only requires a little bit of heat input to the area you’re working in to make it usable on the coldest days as long as you’re active. I’ve been quite surprised at how well it performs thermally. 
 

 

Edited May 29 by Kelvin

[Kelvin]

53 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Your best bet is probably blown cellulose.

Ask anyone that has it.

Yes biggest miss for our house is not using it. I’m happy with the result we got and it’s all working well but it could have slightly been better. By the time I’d found out about it, it was too late and I couldn’t find anyone locally that did it. Although when we got the airtightness test done the guy that did it said he’d just started doing it as an extra service. Next time 😂 

[LnP]

6 hours ago, Gus Potter said:

 

 

In the old days we had a rough spec from the SE and Architect re the timber frame and just got on with it. Now I'm an SE I go out and inspect TF by some of the big suppliers and find so much wrong with them I wonder.. why are folk paying for this as self builders?

@Gus Potter What kind of things are you finding wrong?

[G and J]

8 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

Everyone that’s been in our house has commented on how quiet it is. The sparky was in the other day finishing some stuff off and mentioned how quiet it is compared to any house he’s been in. Both outwith the house and within. I don’t have a direct comparison but our garage is metal with 80mm PIR sandwich. It’s obviously built very differently and isn’t sealed for airtightness other than what the construction achieves. You can pretty much hear everything that’s outside just as clearly as if you were outside. However it doesn’t heat up much in the hottest days and only requires a little bit of heat input to area you’re working in to make it usable on the coldest days as long as you’re active. I’ve been quite surprised at how well it performs thermally. 
 

 

Our walls are going to be a lot thinner than yours, and your garage experience would be awful to live in.  
 

That said, we are tight each Sid to neighbours so I guess they’ll acoustically shield our two longest walks a bit, and it’s not near a busy road…. but still….

[Kelvin]

Our timber kit is square. Not so much some of the internal panels. However we had many many issues with ours largely caused by the incompetent builder the timber kit company uses. Being built off-site in a factory doesn’t make it any more likely that it’s accurately built to the drawings. The lean to porch bit of our house was 100mm too high at the rear of the panel (it’s sloped as it’s a flat roof). Plus it wasn’t any quicker to get from start to weather tight. They planned 4 weeks and it took them almost 9. The services routing from the porch bit (where the plant room is) to the main house was completely wrong and I had to make it up as I went along. 

[Kelvin]

11 minutes ago, G and J said:

Our walls are going to be a lot thinner than yours, and your garage experience would be awful to live in.  
 

That said, we are tight each Sid to neighbours so I guess they’ll acoustically shield our two longest walks a bit, and it’s not near a busy road…. but still….

Your wall build up will be different though with all different materials and densities so it will be much better than the garage. 

[G and J]

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

Your best bet is probably blown cellulose.

Ask anyone that has it.

So, just had a quick google and I think I’m missing something about brown cellulose.  I’m presuming it settles over time, and therefore if used in walls then the insulation will be reduced at the top of the wall sections.  I’ve already wondered that about rock wool and the like.  How does it work?

[Kelvin]

15 minutes ago, G and J said:

So, just had a quick google and I think I’m missing something about brown cellulose.  I’m presuming it settles over time, and therefore if used in walls then the insulation will be reduced at the top of the wall sections.  I’ve already wondered that about rock wool and the like.  How does it work?

Yes it can do and you can also get voids. 
However, like every other job done well by professionals it will be fine as they’ll account for this. I had to stop the people insulating our house and do a lot of it myself.  

Edited May 29 by Kelvin