electric boilers are cheaper than heatpumps to run

[JohnMo]

1 minute ago, Roger440 said:

unclear how you get a heat pump and cylinder installed for £3k though? Anything under 5 figures seems to be impossible. Id do it myself, but i still couldnt do it for that

eBay for heat pump, City Plumbing for cylinder, existing UFH, some pipe and insulation. Existing thermostat controls the ESBE mixer on UFH. All self installed including UVC (did the training). Heat pump does its thing, without any outside controls. System is super simple.

[Roger440]

11 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

eBay for heat pump, City Plumbing for cylinder, existing UFH, some pipe and insulation. Existing thermostat controls the ESBE mixer on UFH. All self installed including UVC (did the training). Heat pump does its thing, without any outside controls. System is super simple.

 

Was the pump used rather than new?

[JohnMo]

4 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

 

Was the pump used rather than new?

Brand new in box.

[Iceverge]

2 hours ago, Roger440 said:

 

That really is bugger all.

 

I can dream! I reckon i could get it down to circa 6, maybe a touch less. But it will cost £20k plus. With me doing all the work. And thats keeping the existing boiler. And moving out for 6 months plus. So no financial logic whatsoever.

 

Just got to get combined household income under £31k, then i can have it all done for free courtesy of the welsh government.........

 

Maybe you can see why I think most old houses reach a point they need to be rebuilt. 

 

We still build houses like we did cars 120 years ago. Every part is bespoke. We need production lines with standard parts building passive houses at an affordable cost, not messing around with old piles to get them to a still poor level.

 

2 hours ago, ProDave said:

I use under 1500kWh heating the house for a year.  The solar PV generates more than that, but of course not when you need the heating.

 

Excellent result. You're a good bit colder than we are in Cork too. Its the fabric of your build rather than the ASHP is the star of your show however. 

[ProDave]

Yes my house is cheap to heat because I built it well.  Actually the extra costs of building it well are not that much.  Extra insulation and 3G windows really.  Most of what makes it good is the detailing to get everything right, and reasonable air tightness. Another £1500 to buy and install mvhr, with the cost of ducting etc exceeding the cost of the MVHR unit itself.

 

I have said many times I don't see why MCS companies are charging so much for heat pump installs.  ASHP from ebay new under £1K and Telford stainless steel heat pump unvented hot water cylinder for about £1K  EVERYTHING else, pipe, programmers, pumps, under floor heating is the same as would be fitted if I had put an oil fired boiler in.  I did not look at prices but I bet an oil fired boiler and a bunded oil tank would be not far off the cost of my ASHP and unvented cylinder.

 

I have so far installed 2 ASHP's in new builds for others, and 2 days labour for both plumber and electrician should cover it, so with rates here that's under £1500 for labour.  So £5K should cover it i.e. should be entirely covered by the BUS grant and cost the customer nothing.  So I await an explanation why it costs the customer often £5K or more after the BUS grant has reduced it?

 

But I agree the cost to properly upgrade older houses to get the heating load down low is high and it will be VERY disruptive.  This is a problem the politicians don't want to talk about.  Who is going to pay for that work etc.

 

Except the Scottish Government have stated that by 2025 all rental properties must be EPC C or better.  That will likely just mean landlords selling up and quitting the business and leave the new unsuspecting owner occupiers to deal with the old buildings.  And they will later have a "surprise" when they find the SG expect all owner occupied properties to be similarly updated by 2033

[Adsibob]

19 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

What sort of (expletive deleted) approves these installations.

Our glorious ministry of defence. Vote Tory!

[Roger440]

11 hours ago, Iceverge said:

 

Maybe you can see why I think most old houses reach a point they need to be rebuilt. 

 

We still build houses like we did cars 120 years ago. Every part is bespoke. We need production lines with standard parts building passive houses at an affordable cost, not messing around with old piles to get them to a still poor level.

 

 

 

On a theoretical level, its entirely logical. I never disagreed.

 

Just completely impractical. Because who will pay? Where will i live in ther iterim. Who will pay. Wo will pay. 

 

If i could safford that, id have built a new house.

 

I would have loved to do a new build. But in the end, it just couldnt be. I have niether the time, nor the money to do it. Never mind a complete lack of suitable plots etc. Especially as i want/need a decent sized workshop. The latter could never be got through planning on a new build.

 

 

[Roger440]

2 hours ago, ProDave said:

Yes my house is cheap to heat because I built it well.  Actually the extra costs of building it well are not that much.  Extra insulation and 3G windows really.  Most of what makes it good is the detailing to get everything right, and reasonable air tightness. Another £1500 to buy and install mvhr, with the cost of ducting etc exceeding the cost of the MVHR unit itself.

 

I have said many times I don't see why MCS companies are charging so much for heat pump installs.  ASHP from ebay new under £1K and Telford stainless steel heat pump unvented hot water cylinder for about £1K  EVERYTHING else, pipe, programmers, pumps, under floor heating is the same as would be fitted if I had put an oil fired boiler in.  I did not look at prices but I bet an oil fired boiler and a bunded oil tank would be not far off the cost of my ASHP and unvented cylinder.

 

I have so far installed 2 ASHP's in new builds for others, and 2 days labour for both plumber and electrician should cover it, so with rates here that's under £1500 for labour.  So £5K should cover it i.e. should be entirely covered by the BUS grant and cost the customer nothing.  So I await an explanation why it costs the customer often £5K or more after the BUS grant has reduced it?

 

But I agree the cost to properly upgrade older houses to get the heating load down low is high and it will be VERY disruptive.  This is a problem the politicians don't want to talk about.  Who is going to pay for that work etc.

 

Except the Scottish Government have stated that by 2025 all rental properties must be EPC C or better.  That will likely just mean landlords selling up and quitting the business and leave the new unsuspecting owner occupiers to deal with the old buildings.  And they will later have a "surprise" when they find the SG expect all owner occupied properties to be similarly updated by 2033

 

I think we all know why. And now they have icreased the subsidy, they will be even more expensive.

 

Ive not paid close attention, but how will the government force an owner occupier to get it to a C ?

[SteamyTea]

9 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

Ive not paid close attention, but how will the government force an owner occupier to get it to a C ?

Council tax surcharge would be the simple way.

Not that any government will every do anything simple.

So expect a mixture of household income, property value, location, energy usage and complete bollocks.

Then it may come in by 2030, which will be moved to 2035.

[Roger440]

8 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Council tax surcharge would be the simple way.

Not that any government will every do anything simple.

So expect a mixture of household income, property value, location, energy usage and complete bollocks.

Then it may come in by 2030, which will be moved to 2035.

 

That would make no sense at all. Effectively fine those that cant afford to do so. Just to make sure they cant afford it.

 

Makes no sense at all. So we would probably do it!

 

I was referring to scotland specifically. In England, they have already made it such that the minister of state can specify what must be done in a specific house with a penalty of £15k or 6 months in prison. And our elected leaders thought this was a good idea.

 

I guess i can look forward to spending my later yeas in prison. On the upside, will be better looked after than in a care home.........................

[dpmiller]

so how would you propose pushing improvements to the housing stock?

[ProDave]

12 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

I guess i can look forward to spending my later yeas in prison. On the upside, will be better looked after than in a care home.........................

Ask at your trial for the EPC certificate of the prison they are proposing to send you to.......

[jack]

3 hours ago, ProDave said:

I have said many times I don't see why MCS companies are charging so much for heat pump installs.  

 

I assume you're being rhetorical. They're charging that much because that's what the market (including the government incentives) will bear.

[SteamyTea]

35 minutes ago, Roger440 said:

That would make no sense at all.

Exactly.  We have created a housing system that is not functioning at every single level.

25 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

so how would you propose pushing improvements to the housing stock?

I wouldn't, as such.  I would just force the energy companies to borrow loads of money and install RE systems.  If the companies fail, at least the sell off cheap.re is in place for the receiver to sell off cheap.

[Iceverge]

2 hours ago, Roger440 said:

Just completely impractical. Because who will pay? Where will i live in ther iterim. Who will pay. Wo will pay. 

 

 

Like I said before, you're stuffed, it costs too much. Governments fault though. 

 

In reality a house has 3 parts that make up the value. 

 

1. The structure

2. The value of the land underneath

3. The legal ability to exist. 

 

The government has massively inflated the price of each by:

 

1. Insisting we build houses to look like they did a century ago, bricks and chimney pots, clay tiles, dormer windows, porches annexes and flat robes galore. God forbid you install an ASHP outdoor unit. 

 

2. Zoning restrictively, saying  what you can build, and where you can build it.

 

3. The planning permission system. Horribly slow, expensive, massive power to NIMBYs. Loads of different government agencies weighing in with completely uncordinated requirements. 

 

The state so effectively control supply and restrict innovation is why we have such expensive and crap houses. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[ProDave]

1 hour ago, jack said:

 

I assume you're being rhetorical. They're charging that much because that's what the market (including the government incentives) will bear.

Of course I was, but I would not wish to accuse anyone of pure profiteering without absolute proof, but what other conclusion can you draw from the high installed prices everyone seems to quote for an ASHP installation? 

[saveasteading]

10 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

bricks and chimney pots,

This is the developers not the government. Most are fibreglass pods screwed onto the roof. I have moved for them to be omitted but thd developers think they help sell the houses. Planners didn't  object, in fact it hadn't occurred to them.

 

[Iceverge]

Were they struggling to shift the houses? 

29 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

This is the developers not the government. Most are fibreglass pods screwed onto the roof. I have moved for them to be omitted but thd developers think they help sell the houses. Planners didn't  object, in fact it hadn't occurred to them.

 

[saveasteading]

6 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

Were they struggling to shift the houses

No. But their formula includes these to make them 'traditional' and part of the package they believe makes money. Fibreglass  birds on the fibreglass chimney pots are, however, not considered.

[Mr Punter]

14 hours ago, Iceverge said:

Maybe you can see why I think most old houses reach a point they need to be rebuilt. 

 

Where I am a typical house is a Victorian terrace in a conservation area.  In nearby Brighton a typical dwelling is a converted flat.

[Iceverge]

18 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

No. But their formula includes these to make them 'traditional' and part of the package they believe makes money. Fibreglass  birds on the fibreglass chimney pots are, however, not considered.

 

How about an outdoor bog?

 

 

[Iceverge]

12 minutes ago, Mr Punter said:

 

Where I am a typical house is a Victorian terrace in a conservation area.  In nearby Brighton a typical dwelling is a converted flat.

 

The Victorians built the best houses they could at the time with the given technology. 

 

Pity we can't collectively seem to learn from them. 

[saveasteading]

35 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

about an outdoor bog?

A faux one? If that helped sell, they would, but there is so little outdoor space that there is nowhere to put one.

[billt]

26 minutes ago, Iceverge said:

 

The Victorians built the best houses they could at the time with the given technology. 

 

Pity we can't collectively seem to learn from them. 

What a lot of sweeping generalisations you seem to make.

 

I rather think that the Victorians did what every generation does build a mix of housing, good mediocre and terrible. If you were wealthy you could afford to get a good house designed and built for you. If you were poor you had to put up with whatever jerry built tat was available - just like today. (Jerry built - earliest usage believed to be 1832.)

 

(Qv survivorship bias.)

Edited December 31, 2023 by billt

[saveasteading]

7 minutes ago, billt said:

good mediocre and terrible.

 

8 minutes ago, billt said:

(Qv survivorship bias.)

A new term to me, better than what I was about to say....the slums have long been pulled down if they hadn't fallen down. Most 'nice' Victorian houses are terraced, built for the rising middle class of merchants and tradespeople, to proven designs, using quality materials, and mostly well maintained thereafter.