Standard of workmanship

[saveasteading]

Just now, Roger440 said:

The lack of pride in your work is the real issue

I'd say shortage of skills is the issue, so anyone can make a living without what we would want to see by way of skill, knowledge  and attitude.

Anybody good can make a lot of money but then employs those others and has to manage them  or not.

It really annoys me when an unqualified bricky tells me about how Engineers overdesign, and similar tales to the above.

Then forgets an opening for a door, leaves dropped bricks in the mud, ETC 

[SteamyTea]

5 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

I'd say shortage of skills is the issue

To a certain extent yes, but there are some hopeless cases as well.

This guy for instance.

https://www.hvpmag.co.uk/Suspended-prison-sentence-for-prohibition-notice-breaking-plumber-/17105

 

Apparently he is now working as a motor vehicle fitted, possibly unqualified.

It is usual to let the 'lad' in the garage change brake linings, as that is a simple job.

[Roger440]

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

To a certain extent yes, but there are some hopeless cases as well.

This guy for instance.

https://www.hvpmag.co.uk/Suspended-prison-sentence-for-prohibition-notice-breaking-plumber-/17105

 

Apparently he is now working as a motor vehicle fitted, possibly unqualified.

It is usual to let the 'lad' in the garage change brake linings, as that is a simple job.

 

No qualifications are required to work on motor vehicles. Literally, anyone can have a go. And do. Motor trade is just as bad as building. I should know!

 

[Roger440]

1 hour ago, saveasteading said:

I'd say shortage of skills is the issue, so anyone can make a living without what we would want to see by way of skill, knowledge  and attitude.

Anybody good can make a lot of money but then employs those others and has to manage them  or not.

It really annoys me when an unqualified bricky tells me about how Engineers overdesign, and similar tales to the above.

Then forgets an opening for a door, leaves dropped bricks in the mud, ETC 

 

Thats an issue too. But being skilled doesnt necessarily mean you take pride in your work. Its clear many dont. In some respects thats worse. Ie, you know how to do it properly, but you just cant be bothered, as opposed to being so ignorant of the task, you dont know you are doing it wrong.

 

[Jilly]

I’m glad it’s not just me! It’s harder for women as some of the chaps are so sexist, I hated those conversations when I wanted something done correctly and had sleepless nights before deciding to let them go. I don’t know how people can be off site with their build. Everything is soon covered up…

Edited November 16, 2023 by Jilly

[joe90]

5 hours ago, Alan Ambrose said:

>>> Arguing with stupid people, who are so stupid they don't realise how stupid they are.

 

+99

Yes you can’t cure stupid.

[jack]

8 hours ago, Jilly said:

I’m glad it’s not just me! It’s harder for women as some of the chaps are so sexist, I hated those conversations when I wanted something done correctly and had sleepless nights before deciding to let them go. I don’t know how people can be off site with their build. Everything is soon covered up…

 

My wife was far more important to our build than I was. She ran the entire site. Most of the guys we had onsite were pretty good, but a few struggled with taking instructions from a woman.

[Pocster]

1 hour ago, jack said:

 

My wife was far more important to our build than I was. She ran the entire site. Most of the guys we had onsite were pretty good, but a few struggled with taking instructions from a woman.

Can she come to my site and manage me please ?

[ToughButterCup]

1 hour ago, jack said:

....  but a few struggled with taking instructions from a woman.

 

Ughhh, same here.

I would say that most of the trades that worked here ignored Debbie. In the worst case, the MD of DURISOL talked at her while walking away  - and faced me instead. 

 

When blokes treat her like that, I have come to enjoy the anticipation of the way she brings two verbal bricks sharply together on his withers. 

 

[ToughButterCup]

We often  have this discussion about skills - it runs something like ' We need more skilled people for  for trade xyz'

 

And I always suggest that skills are just the icing on the cake.

We need to give tradesfolk  parity of esteem with their non-trade colleagues. Until there is a rigorous and universally accepted Apprenticeship Scheme - one that engenders respect in the pub and the building site, then we'll continue to suck our teeth with irritation.  The German model isn't perfect. But it's better than ours.

 

And Apprenticeship depends on an excellent education system: one where those not going to University have the opportunity to get highly respected qualifications as trades people.

And there's less than no chance of that.

[joe90]

1 hour ago, Pocster said:

Can she come to my site and manage me please ?

I don’t think that’s a good idea, do you? 😱

 

23 minutes ago, ToughButterCup said:

The German model isn't perfect. But it's better than ours.

Yes, I read some time ago that German companies mostly still run apprenticeships and are family run rather than big corp and university degree oriented.

 

when I was  building a garage at a former house my 10 year old son asked how I was making decisions on what to do, I told him certain things are dictated (building regs) but mostly it was common sense, his reply was “when I grow up I want to go to university and get a degree in common sense”. Bless him……

Edited November 17, 2023 by joe90

[MR10]

13 minutes ago, joe90 said:

a degree in common sense……

Probably needed as not much common sense went into the current government appointing a common sense tsar...

[Super_Paulie]

ive got a list as long as my arm (and leg) of the things the builder did that were p!55 poor, you get what you pay for. The only saving grace is that the external brick work is really nice so that was a bonus that cushioned the blow somewhat.

Just daft things like they didnt tool off the silicone on the doors for example, and the setting out of rafters and joists is erratic as is their overly zealous use of a nail gun. Thats passable at best but i have found they used bits of knackered old fence i had behind the shed as parts of the roof in the porch. I mean thats just mental, the fence i took down as it was borderline falling down and it was only fit for burning, i had it stashed for fuel for the chimenea, not for a brand new porch.

 

Too much hassle to pull them on it after they had left, i just wouldnt use them again or recommend them to anyone.

[Alan Ambrose]

I guess 'our' kind of houses are, unfortunately, few-and-far between, so there's simply little exposure to good building practice or a lot of the more modern equipment, materials, and techniques we use. I think most customers for building trades don't have any idea of what quality they're getting - they tend to judge by contractor's politeness, cleanliness of their vans, how much they tidy up, how well written their quotes are etc etc.

 

So, as we're leading the housing quality race, it would be right that central and local government cut us some slack e.g. like restricting Part O to the high-rise flat builders and the modern estate builders.

[saveasteading]

12 minutes ago, Alan Ambrose said:

they tend to judge by contractor's politeness, cleanliness of their vans, how much they tidy up, 

Good point. What else can most people go by?

To this I add, selling themselves. Some can talk a very good job  and are forever reinforcing how good they are.

I'm not going to give examples now but I'm reasonably experienced and hardened, and they still do it ( including completely ignoring instructions)

It works for them and I hate to think what they've done elsewhere.

[ToughButterCup]

19 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Good point. What else can most people go by? ....

 

The Due Diligence Process.

[Kelvin]

For this latest trade I went with the recommendation of the materials supplier who signs off all the jobs and provides the warranty. He told me if he was getting a flat roof done he would use these guys. It’s probably why I am more disappointed with it. 

[joe90]

Personal recommendation every time, ask any potential contractor for a couple of telephone numbers for previous customers, if they won’t give them walk away, when I started my building career “small time” I started with family and friends, soon I had more work than  I could do, I never advertised (I did get a magnetic sign fir my van when parked up but never got any work from it), 

Edited November 17, 2023 by joe90

[Super_Paulie]

is it normal to have to remove about 3000 fag butts from under the joists and all your plant pots once they are done? asking for a friend.

[Kelvin]

I had plastic bags tacked to the walls throughout the house and they still chucked empty crisp packets etc on the floor. My other half collected it all up and put it in their van 😂 They never did it again. 

[Pocster]

2 hours ago, joe90 said:

The German model isn't perfect.

I thought she was a hottie 

[Pocster]

Whilst promoting business on this forum is not allowed …

 

I am available for all aspects of building work . No up front costs . No salesman . Just sub standard work without any warranty- and that is guaranteed !

[jack]

4 hours ago, Pocster said:

Can she come to my site and manage me please ?

 

No.

[jack]

3 hours ago, ToughButterCup said:

We often  have this discussion about skills - it runs something like ' We need more skilled people for  for trade xyz'

 

And I always suggest that skills are just the icing on the cake.

We need to give tradesfolk  parity of esteem with their non-trade colleagues. Until there is a rigorous and universally accepted Apprenticeship Scheme - one that engenders respect in the pub and the building site, then we'll continue to suck our teeth with irritation.  The German model isn't perfect. But it's better than ours.

 

And Apprenticeship depends on an excellent education system: one where those not going to University have the opportunity to get highly respected qualifications as trades people.

And there's less than no chance of that.

 

 

I can't tell you how many times I've had this conversation in the last few years. We just don't respect tradespeople enough in this country. It's (wrongly imo) seen as something that kids who weren't any good at school end up doing because they aren't good for anything else. Absolute bollocks.

[ToughButterCup]

Well how about her managing  me    then .... we all know @Pocster's a bit  , well,  you know ......  ??