Missing insulation in vaulted ceiling

[d87francis]

Hi all,

 

firstly apologies if I've posted on the wrong board, this seemed most appropriate.

 

We purchased a new build in England in Feb 2023, immediately noticed it was quite cold, thermal survey showed issues with seals around windows and the loft. Upon inspection immediately apparent that insulation is patchy and missing in a lot of places. It is a cold roof space with then a vaulted ceiling section above the stairwell which protudes into half the roof space which should be a warm roof construction.

 

 

The flat ceilings are obviously missing a fair bit of insulation roll, some areas with none, and those that have it rarely meet 270mm. They are also all laid between joists with no second layer perpendiculor to cover the joists and the gaps.

 

However, the real issue is that the vaulted ceiling area does not have sufficient PIR boards around it to form a continuous envelope. The walls of the ceiling area have huge gaps and missing sections opening the back of the plasterboard directly to the cold roof space. There are some 150mm boards pictured but well away from the plasterboard so providing no use.

 

 

 

Then above the pitched celing of the vaulted ceiling area there are 90mm boards between the rafters, many of them pushed too high to block ventilation, and 75mm boards under the rafters before the plasterboard. Unfortunately neither of these form a continuous envelope with the wall sections so just open up to cold roof space at the ends where they meet the walls. There is a gap between the 90mm between the rafters and the 75mm below the rafters in most runs also allowing cold air through.

 

After 6 months of pestering we have a the developer coming to have a look at it this week, along with getting some local firms to quote to do the work to bring this up to building regs. We're still in the 2 year defect period and potentially forsee having to go all the way through to the financial ombudsman on other issues anyway as the developers are crap and very aggressive/avoidant.

 

I'm struggling to find/interpret what the minimum PIR board thickness on pitched warm roofs for new builds is? As whilst some say 140/150mm for conversions and extensions, I've found others saying that for new builds it could be 270mm even for PIR boards?

 

I'd really appreciate any input and thoughts anyone could give, thanks so much!

 

 

 

 

[ProDave]

That is abysmal workmanship.  What little insulation there is on the upstands is doing absolutely nothing by virtue of the fact cold air can get behind it.

 

To do that properly is going to take some care to fit the insulation a nice and snug fit, foam in the gaps, and tape the joints so everything is enclosed nice and snug with no path for cold air to bypass the insulation.

 

And sadly what most of us know of mass market builders is the chance of actually getting them to do it properly is quite slim.  But you have to try and if it is not done right keep banging away at them.

 

When you do get them to do it, please post pictures as they go.

[TonyT]

Plus 1, rip it out and start again, just like the song

[ETC]

Did Building Control not inspect the roof insulation?

[d87francis]

38 minutes ago, ETC said:

Did Building Control not inspect the roof insulation?

It was a third party approved inspector. Gonna drop them an email now and see what they say.

 

Thanks for other replies so far. I'm similarly minded that it needs ripping out and starting again. It's a tight loft space with a lot of truss work, plus a narrow loft hatch so I don't know how you would even fit new boards in without removing either plasterboard or roof tiles? As @ProDavesays to do it properly is gonna take some care.

 

Other sections have huge cracks and 200mm screws boshed in all over the place forming cold bridges.

 

I will of course update as it goes. Thanks again!

Edited October 29, 2023 by d87francis

[FuerteStu]

8 minutes ago, d87francis said:

It was a third party approved inspector. Gonna drop them an email now and see what they say.

Could you contact the Local Authority building control? 

 

The houses behind me were signed off by independents, and they had zero surface drainage fitted and none of the roof tiles were fixed down... When LABC got involved the builders soon got their act together and righted the wrongs. 

[S2D2]

Keep going, this is not acceptable.

[TonyT]

Let’s be honest the developer will blame everyone else in this matter, you will get stressed.

they will put more effort into not doing the work, this will go on for months/years they will then realise they have some retention monies from the original contractor held back and use this against them and the same muppets who fitted it will come back to rectify it, blaming more people.

 

it will still be rubbish and then the arguing starts again.

 

might be better to try for a cash settlement and find a decent handy person yourself/diy.

 

 

[nod]

The problem you have with insulating houses is more often than not it’s not in when BC do there pre plaster 

So a ceiling is insulated and boarded ten minutes later 

[ETC]

Called to do an inspection recently - a completion - foreman said everything was complete. Went into the roof space - not a hint of insulation - very red-faced foreman!

[ETC]

29 minutes ago, nod said:

The problem you have with insulating houses is more often than not it’s not in when BC do there pre plaster 

So a ceiling is insulated and boarded ten minutes later 

BC should pick this up when a completion inspection is carried out. No excuse for not looking.

[nod]

1 hour ago, ETC said:

BC should pick this up when a completion inspection is carried out. No excuse for not looking.

It would be unusual for them to arrive with a thermal image camera and start climbing around in the loft 

Most home sign offs are a quick walk round and a checklist of certs gas elec sap etc

[ProDave]

30 minutes ago, nod said:

It would be unusual for them to arrive with a thermal image camera and start climbing around in the loft 

Most home sign offs are a quick walk round and a checklist of certs gas elec sap etc

But until BC inspectors have the balls to go up into a loft like this one and say "Sorry chaps, that insulation is not installed to an acceptable standard, it has to be re done properly before I will issue a completion" then mass market builders will continue turning out sub standard rubbish.

 

Most self builders will do it properly because we are mostly self building to get a good house at the end of it.  Mass market builders need to be forced to do the job properly.

[nod]

24 minutes ago, ProDave said:

But until BC inspectors have the balls to go up into a loft like this one and say "Sorry chaps, that insulation is not installed to an acceptable standard, it has to be re done properly before I will issue a completion" then mass market builders will continue turning out sub standard rubbish.

 

Most self builders will do it properly because we are mostly self building to get a good house at the end of it.  Mass market builders need to be forced to do the job properly.

It’s quite normal to see roof restraints screwed to the underside of the truss and plugged to the loft wall Rather than hooked into the cavity 

When I pointed this out to a Building inspector that was try to tell me that I’d used the wrong generic insulation 

He simply replied “What do you want me to do? Tell them to take the roof off “

[ProDave]

2 minutes ago, nod said:

What do you want me to do? Tell them to take the roof off

YES.

 

They would get it right next time.

 

When I last had a proper job, the industrial unit I worked at was having an extension.  A big gable end of the building had been built of brick and block cavity wall.  A few days later they  were taking the outer brick wall down and then re built it.  Building control had failed it for the wrong cavity width or some other detail.

 

If they are made to put incorrect work right, it will focus their mind to get it right first time.

[Roger440]

30 minutes ago, ProDave said:

But until BC inspectors have the balls to go up into a loft like this one and say "Sorry chaps, that insulation is not installed to an acceptable standard, it has to be re done properly before I will issue a completion" then mass market builders will continue turning out sub standard rubbish.

 

Most self builders will do it properly because we are mostly self building to get a good house at the end of it.  Mass market builders need to be forced to do the job properly.

 

Never going to happen is it. 

 

At best, all you can hope for is that insulation is there. No one is going to check that its all sealed up and air cant get behind it. No BCO is ever going to do that.

 

The builders know that, and the above is the result.

 

And good luck with finding a builder that even grasps that basic concept.

 

Only today a video popped up on facebook, of a builder doing a short tutorial video on wall construction, cavity with PIR boards. Made a point about saying you need to tape the joints, whilst clearly showing significant gaps between the boards just taped over! 

 

The system of building regs is broken and utterly pointless.

 

 

[nod]

We where recently held up on a job  Materials left outside three houses for over a week 

The roofer normally fill the top of the party walls with a fire break then tile in The bricklayers had inadvertently set the wallplate a course low which left a 100 mill gap for fire to spread Three different inspectors insisted the scaffolding needed to go back up Tiles and membrane off 

In the end they stuffed the void with rockwool from inside the loft 

If it was any of us 100% the roof would of had to come off 

Definitely a case of the tail wagging the dog 

[ETC]

6 hours ago, nod said:

It would be unusual for them to arrive with a thermal image camera and start climbing around in the loft 

Most home sign offs are a quick walk round and a checklist of certs gas elec sap etc

Christ!

[joe90]

Consider getting the papers involved if it drags on, very bad advertising for the developer and private BC and may make them get off their asses if they don’t get on with it. 

[d87francis]

1 hour ago, joe90 said:

Consider getting the papers involved if it drags on, very bad advertising for the developer and private BC and may make them get off their asses if they don’t get on with it. 

Thanks, it's my go nuclear option, given how much it could upset the other neighbours.

 

I've emailed the third party building control. This week will also email their regulator CICAIR plus the Local Authority Building Control.

 

We will likely be pursuing a complaint through Build-Zone (the warramty provider) and then the Financial Ombudsman Service due to other issues like bowed walls and wavy floor screed on the ground floor, which the developer is ignoring and the roof insulation may well be added into that. We are also getting other firms to quote to do the work, as the homebuilder may not do a decent job on rectifying this. Given access to the loft is through a narrow hatch how would one go about doing this remedial work, would it be remove plasterboard in vaulted ceiling or would it be remove the roof tiles?

 

Does anyone know what the minimum thickness PIR board should be in a pitched warm roof for a new build? It's pre 2022 part L update as notice was first given in 2018.

 

The developer and builder are visiting this week, we plan to ask them for:

- A written report on what they think is wrong with it.

- An intended plan of works with timescales.

- Their plan to mitigate any disruption to us - alternative accommodation / workspace.

- A commitment to compensate us for increased heating bills.

 

Anything else I should add? Thanks so much.

[Redbeard]

When you say 'pitched warm roof' I think you are referring to PIR board fixed *inside*, under the rafters. Strictly a 'Warm Roof' is where the insulation is *on top of* the roof structure, just below the membrane and slates, thus all of the roof timbers are within the thermal envelope. Can you confirm that you mean the former (or that I am wrong in my supposition!)?

 

Either way, pre-June 2022 (target 0.18W/m2K) you'd have just scraped through with 125mm, provided the 'timber fraction' (the part of the 'insulation layer' which is actually wood, not insulation) is not unusually big.

 

As far access goes for the remedial work how deep are the rafters? Common practice since 2010 regs in retrofitting roof insulation to sloping ceilings has been to fill rafter depth minus 25mm, leaving a 25mm vent gap between the membrane and the insulation. BEIS Best Practice guidance now states 50mm as the ideal, so you might, if your rafters are less than 175 deep, find that you have to fit insulation under the rafters too (which is in any case good as a cloaking of the thermal bridge - if you don't do that then add up the width of your rafters to see how much 'full-depth wood' is in your insulation layer. Anyway, yes, ceilings down - no way you could do it properly without. If you try, and can slide the insulation in easily then it is too loose.

 

Sounds like you have a really irritating issue, and I wish you luck with the remediation.

[Kelvin]

That’s infuriatingly awful. Builders like this should be hung out to dry. It’s worse than incompetence as they just don’t care from the guys installing it up to the people running the company. If it’s like that in your house your neighbours will be the same I expect. It might be worth pulling resources and engaging someone to do a full survey. 
 

I had a similar issue with my insulation but fortunately caught it early enough to fix and ended up doing half of it myself. The lack of care seems endemic unfortunately. 

Edited October 30, 2023 by Kelvin

[d87francis]

Reply today from approved third party building control inspector

 

"

Thank you for contacting us.

 

I`m sorry to see that insulation is missing to your loft space which is causing the house to be cold.

 

The contractor is obliged to insulate the house in accordance with the architect’s design and in accordance with the building regulations.

 

We carry out inspections to satisfy ourselves that the works meet compliance and these are carried out on a sample basis as we’re unable to see all areas.

 

If we had seen that insulation was missing, we would have requested this to be rectified.

 

In a situation such as this I advise you maintain communication with the developer so they can provide and fit the insulation and if required contact you warranty provider.

 

Kind Regards"

 

So pretty useless. I knew sample basis testing was used for air permiability etc but didn't realise they were allowed to use it for final building control sign off?

[ProDave]

Yes this is a big issue, big housing developments only a sample are inspected by building control.  That needs fixing imho they have proved they cannot be trusted so every single house needs inspecting and defects corrected before sign off.

[d87francis]

Wow that's nuts, next you'll tell me they let the homebuilder pick which houses get inspected!

 

I've just made a building regulation breach complaint to the local authority building control so let's see where that goes.