Heat pump questions

[reddwarf4ever]

I hear the Gov ( in it's infinite wisdom) is going to make heat pumps compulsory from 2024 for new builds,is this true ? My concern is because I have no experience of heat pumps, grew up with an open fireplace, then it all changed to central heating. My concern is that a HP will take ages to warm a house and will never be as cosy as a Gas fired boiler can offer, plus I understand the DHW will not be as hot.....just concerned that HP in their present form isn't the solution, also concerned about running costs Vs a conventional boiler, equally concerned about electric cars but that's not a topic for here

[JamesPa]

If heat pumps aren't the solution, what is the solution to heating your home without causing unsustainable global warming?  If you have one please tell us!   Its really, really 'cosy' in the places that have wildfires or heat waves due to global warming, not so cosy in the areas that have suffered flooding due to the same cause, and wont be at all cosy when tens of millions of human beings are displaced from their homes by a climate that's not liveable in.

 

Heat pumps take longer to heat up but you leave them running for longer to compensate.  Running costs of a heat pump which has been properly set up are currently broadly comparable to gas (that's, however, a political decision because relative energy prices are driven largely by politics not economics).  They are much cheaper than any other form of electric heating.  Many people with heat pumps report higher levels of comfort.  They aren't perfect by any means, but neither is any other known way of heating homes.

 

As to electric cars, imagine they had been there first, and then someone tried to sell you a car that you couldn't refuel at home, that is driven by a series of explosions and contains an explosive, oily liquid, doesn't accelerate anything like as quickly, and needs more expensive and more frequent servicing.   Are you going to buy one, I thought not!  

 

 

 

 

Edited October 16, 2023 by JamesPa

[JohnMo]

Just a different operating regime, I am just commissioning mine on heating, it's been doing cooling over the summer - gas and open fires don't do that.

 

Have underfloor heating, it operates the same gas or heat pump.

 

DHW you just store more at a lower temperature, so no issue.

[JohnMo]

18 minutes ago, reddwarf4ever said:

take ages to warm a house and will never be as cosy

Had my initial settings on the heat pump too high and house way too hot

[SteamyTea]

55 minutes ago, reddwarf4ever said:

I hear the Gov ( in it's infinite wisdom) is going to make heat pumps compulsory from 2024 for new builds,is this true ?

I don't that that is true, nor has it every been.

 

There is a lot of confusion and misinformation about heat pumps.

It mainly boils down to the general public having fallen asleep during science lessons.

Temperature, power and energy are not the same thing.

The main points to remember about any heating and hot water system is that it needs to be designed and operated correctly.

[Conor]

I bloody love mine. If you build your house right, and don't scrape the bottom of the regs to pass U values, your house will be warm and cosy no matter how you heat it. We still haven't had our heating on this season yet. Our annual energy consumption is about a quarter of the national average for comparable size.

Edited October 16, 2023 by Conor

[Beelbeebub]

It was expected that the Gov would ban gas boilers in new build properties from 2025.

 

That is all up in the air as Rishi Sunak gropes around for anything he thinks might win him some votes. 

 

The key thing is the ban would intialky only have applied to new build homes. 

 

That, by definition, means the homes will have been designed from the start to operate using heatpumps

 

This means they will be warm, have plenty of hot water and will cost less to run than older houses. 

 

Don't worry about it. There is a ton of fear, uncertainty and doubt being promoted by certain groups who would rather continue with gas boilers. 

 

 

 

 

[ReedRichards]

I'm tempted just to offer this: 

 

[nod]

Heat pumps will probably never be compulsory in new builds It was 2025 but the government has just extended that to 2035 My guess is that gas boilers will be with us for many years to come 

 

[ProDave]

I can assure you a heat pump in a well built new build house that is well insulated and air tight does work very well indeed and the house is warm all the time.  It will be "different" to an old leaky house with a gas boiler that it won't go cold overnight when the heating goes off.  In a modern well insulated house if the heating goes off you might not even notice for a day or 2, it keeps it's heat for so long and cools sown so slowly.

 

Of course whether the mass market house builders will ever be capable of making a proper well insulated air tight house good enough to behave like that is a debatable subject.

 

The much bigger and harder issue is the plan / hope to retro fit heat pumps into the stock of old leaky houses that I have a great deal less confidence that it will ever work.

[Beelbeebub]

7 hours ago, ProDave said:

I can assure you a heat pump in a well built new build house that is well insulated and air tight does work very well indeed and the house is warm all the time.  It will be "different" to an old leaky house with a gas boiler that it won't go cold overnight when the heating goes off.  In a modern well insulated house if the heating goes off you might not even notice for a day or 2, it keeps it's heat for so long and cools sown so slowly.

My house is highly insulated and air tight and we have only just turned the heating on 48hrs or more after the temps dropped.

 

7 hours ago, ProDave said:

Of course whether the mass market house builders will ever be capable of making a proper well insulated air tight house good enough to behave like that is a debatable subject.

Very true. Thsy said I think the key is to ditch the system of "sub contract" building inspection and move back to an independent public inspection body. Builders are perfectly capable of building to the required standard as long as the inventives are right. Having to redo an entire site because you skimped on air tightness or insuslation and the inspector won't just sign it off to stay employed will be a pretty good incentive. 

 

7 hours ago, ProDave said:

The much bigger and harder issue is the plan / hope to retro fit heat pumps into the stock of old leaky houses that I have a great deal less confidence that it will ever work.

HPs can work at a technical level. Almost any home can be kept warm by a HP. There are some issues with placement of the equipment in some circumstances. Space and planning rules can be problematic. 

 

Modern units can achieve better gas to heat efficency than a gas boiler even at high temps (scop greater than 2.5)

 

But when people say "HPs don't work in retrofits" what they really mean is "won't be cheaper than a has boiler". Which is true. You need a scop better than 3.5 to do that and that can be hard to achieve in retrofits without major work. 

 

But the gas/electric price ratio, and hence the break even scop requirement, are in part regulatory artifacts (and our generation infrastructure). 

 

Right now the way things are set up, electricity is priced as though it was gas generated even if it is generated by wind at a lower cost.

 

Many of the "green taxes" fall on the electricity unit price not the gas price. 

 

If the pricing ratio were to shift via generation changes and (maybe more crucially) regulatory changes then it would be much easier for HPs to work. 

 

For example if elec was only 2x price of gas, it would be much easier for a HP to be cheaper than a gas boiler. 

 

If gas and electeixty were the same price, hardly anyone would install a gas boiler and the conversation would be "gas boilers just don't work in old leaky houses" 

[joth]

Agree with all responses above.

One thing that's very true at the moment is owning/using a heat pump is indeed unfamiliar. For hot water it's much more like an old system boiler than a combi, and for heating it's perhaps reminiscent of E7 storage heaters, although not really like it in practice.

On top of this, the tech is relatively new and has some odd/surprising failure modes that aren't obvious to solve or even  go unnoticed for long periods, e.g. short cycling causing massive cost increases.

Finally, the metering is all wrapped up in the rest of the household electricity usage rather than having it's one "gas is heating" approximation in the bill, and the manufacturer monitoring and controls is often provided in dang awful cloud services and half-baked apps which further harms the experience.

Fundamentally, heat pumps are  the future, we're just living through the early adopter / peak of hype / trough of disillusionment tech maturity stage. Especially us here in this forum. 

 

Edited October 17, 2023 by joth

[SimonD]

21 hours ago, Beelbeebub said:

It was expected that the Gov would ban gas boilers in new build properties from 2025.

 

That is all up in the air as Rishi Sunak gropes around for anything he thinks might win him some votes. 

 

The key thing is the ban would intialky only have applied to new build homes. 

 

That, by definition, means the homes will have been designed from the start to operate using heatpumps

 

This means they will be warm, have plenty of hot water and will cost less to run than older houses. 

 

Don't worry about it. There is a ton of fear, uncertainty and doubt being promoted by certain groups who would rather continue with gas boilers. 

 

 

 

 

 

It seems customers are waking up to it. Hopefully pressure will mount on the developers

 

https://www.theguardian.com/money/2023/oct/16/housebuilders-just-want-the-cheapest-thing-possible-how-futureproof-are-new-build-homes

 

But with this lot in government, the can will probably be kicked down the road indefinitely if they can:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2023/oct/05/delayed-consultation-on-net-zero-construction-a-blow-to-uk-homeowners

Edited October 17, 2023 by SimonD

[IanR]

22 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

23 hours ago, reddwarf4ever said:

I hear the Gov ( in it's infinite wisdom) is going to make heat pumps compulsory from 2024 for new builds,is this true ? 

 

I don't that that is true, nor has it every been.

 

15 hours ago, nod said:

Heat pumps will probably never be compulsory in new builds It was 2025 but the government has just extended that to 2035 My guess is that gas boilers will be with us for many years to come 

 

21 hours ago, Beelbeebub said:

It was expected that the Gov would ban gas boilers in new build properties from 2025.

 

That is all up in the air as Rishi Sunak gropes around for anything he thinks might win him some votes. 

 

Blimey, considering we're a pretty well informed community on this subject, even this collective are confused about what's happening. (me included)

 

So, the Future Homes Standard, due to come into Buildings Regs 2025 mandates an 80% reduction in CO2 from our new housing, and a non-Fossil Fuel heating system in order to do so.

 

I've not heard that the FHS has been delayed or watered down. Could anyone please post a link if there is a suggestion it has.

 

In Rishi's speech, I was only aware of the plan for EPC improvements for private rentals being delayed and the ban on replacement Fossil Fuel boilers, for off-gas-grid properties, being delayed from 2026 to 2035 (aligning it with the rest of the housing stock).

 

If that's the case, the requirement for non-FF heating systems for new builds from 2025 remains. - If I've missed an announcement to the contrary, please post a link.

 

 

23 hours ago, reddwarf4ever said:

heat pumps compulsory from 2024 for new builds,is this true ? 

 

Heat pumps won't be compulsory, but Fossil Fuel heating systems may be outlawed, for new builds, from 2025. If you are rural, you may be able to use bio-mass (it's not clear on what the rules will be that will allow this, "in some cases") and there's an ongoing argument regarding bio-fuels.

However, for most new homes, a heat pump would be the most cost effective option.

Edited October 17, 2023 by IanR

[SimonD]

4 minutes ago, IanR said:

I've not heard that the FHS has been delayed or watered down. Could anyone please post a link if there is a suggestion it has.

 

I provided a link above on the delay. What actually happened with the government was that the policy was going to come into effect 2025, then they watered it down to merely a consultation, and now the consultation has been kicked down the road 🙄

[IanR]

4 minutes ago, SimonD said:

 

I provided a link above on the delay. What actually happened with the government was that the policy was going to come into effect 2025, then they watered it down to merely a consultation, and now the consultation has been kicked down the road 🙄

 

I'd read that piece last week, and I don't feel it's saying that. It's a lot of Tory bashing, predicting further back-tracking, but the statement from the Minister for Energy Efficiency:

 

Quote

Lord Callanan tweeted: “The government will publish the consultation on the future homes standard for new homes this year. We will implement the FHS in 2025, ensuring new homes are ready for net zero.”

 

[Post and beam]

23 hours ago, reddwarf4ever said:

will never be as cosy as a Gas fired boiler can offer

They have been in use in Scandinavia for a lifetime

[SimonD]

15 minutes ago, IanR said:

but the statement from the Minister for Energy Efficiency:

 

Wow, now that's going to be a reliable source these days.....

[nod]

46 minutes ago, IanR said:

 

 

 

Blimey, considering we're a pretty well informed community on this subject, even this collective are confused about what's happening. (me included)

 

So, the Future Homes Standard, due to come into Buildings Regs 2025 mandates an 80% reduction in CO2 from our new housing, and a non-Fossil Fuel heating system in order to do so.

 

I've not heard that the FHS has been delayed or watered down. Could anyone please post a link if there is a suggestion it has.

 

In Rishi's speech, I was only aware of the plan for EPC improvements for private rentals being delayed and the ban on replacement Fossil Fuel boilers, for off-gas-grid properties, being delayed from 2026 to 2035 (aligning it with the rest of the housing stock).

 

If that's the case, the requirement for non-FF heating systems for new builds from 2025 remains. - If I've missed an announcement to the contrary, please post a link.

 

 

 

Heat pumps won't be compulsory, but Fossil Fuel heating systems may be outlawed, for new builds, from 2025. If you are rural, you may be able to use bio-mass (it's not clear on what the rules will be that will allow this, "in some cases") and there's an ongoing argument regarding bio-fuels.

However, for most new homes, a heat pump would be the most cost effective option.

It wasn’t expected within the building industry 

 

[IanR]

5 minutes ago, nod said:

It wasn’t expected within the building industry 

 

 

Then they need to get their heads out of the sand, it was announced and widely reported on in 2019.

[nod]

Just now, IanR said:

 

Then they need to get their heads out of the sand, it was announced and widely reported on in 2019.

I posted on here about two years ago that the 2025 deadline wouldn’t happen My point at the time was why are so many new gas mains being laid if everyone is going to switch to HPs

It was common knowledge within the heating industry Most said that boilers would be gas hydrogen 80-20 

So basically still gas 

 

We are going on to a HP on our next build No gas available so it was an easy decision 

The irony is The electricity that it uses will be generated by fossil fuel Or even worse nuclear 

I agree the government needs to get there heads out of the sand and not make promises that they can’t keep 

 

Let’s see if labour does any better 

2050 ?

 

 

[IanR]

25 minutes ago, nod said:

My point at the time was why are so many new gas mains being laid if everyone is going to switch to HPs

 

Because there's no ban yet, and those new connections today may continue to buy gas until their boilers are irreparable post-2035.

 

27 minutes ago, nod said:

It was common knowledge within the heating industry Most said that boilers would be gas hydrogen 80-20 

So basically still gas 

 

Then the heating industry are fools. 80/20 gas/hydrogen mix was an attempt to bluff the government. Thankfully it has now as good as failed.

 

30 minutes ago, nod said:

The irony is The electricity that it uses will be generated by fossil fuel Or even worse nuclear 

 

Yes, the point is often missed that changes now are only in preparation for Net Zero. And while they will immediately deliver a CO2 reduction, which is positive for the 2030 and 2035 targets, it won't actually be Net Zero until some point in the 2040's.

[Beelbeebub]

The hydrogen thing was just a technobabble to give cover for those who didn't want to move from fossil fuels. 

 

They say "calm down dear, no need to change from gas boilers because we will be able to use magic gas in the future, so we can keep installing these boilers that can run on gas and magic gas"

 

Then when the magic gas fails to materialise "oh what a shame, good job we can just keep burning gas then" 

[Beelbeebub]

4 minutes ago, IanR said:

... the point is often missed that changes now are only in preparation for Net Zero. And while they will immediately deliver a CO2 reduction, which is positive for the 2030 and 2035 targets, it won't actually be Net Zero until some point in the 2040's.

The good thing about switching to HPs now is that right now, we produce heat more efficiently by buriing gas in a Ccgt, sending the elec to the grid and then using a HP at thr other end, than we can by just burning the gas in the house. 

 

So from a co2 perspective HPs are already a win *even if* we have to boost the grid with gas stations. We would still burn less gas overall. 

 

And then that ignores the fact that the grid is getting lower and lower carbon all the time. Capacity issues aside, direct electric heating is now equalt to or lower carbon than gas boilers (gas boilers are about 200g/kwh grid is consistently getting below that). 

 

 

[TonyT]

Use off peak electricity for DHW.

give the heat pump a rest!