Expected architects fees?

[saveasteading]

33 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

for him to format into his spreadsheet

don't get me going on that one!  it is 'so that they can analyse it'.

As an estimator I took some delight in moving money from one item to another to mess them up.

[AliG]

1 hour ago, ETC said:

And if the costs came in lower?

There was no chance of that, it was based on quite a low number, I think it was around 60% of the actual build costs.

[Kelvin]

17 minutes ago, nod said:

There’s no need for a QS on a one house build 

Oh it’s worse than that. The builders told me about another build where they did use this QS. One of the roles of the QS is to help the client manage the finances to come in on budget or maybe even under. I was told by the same QS that he’d save more than his fee for example. Anyway this other client ran out of money and couldn’t afford to finish the house. The first thing that got ditched was the MVHR system. The problem was they scored 1 ACH so the solution was the slit the airtight membrane around the windows at the suggestion of the QS so not the M&E people, nor the architect, or builder but the QS. Clearly there’s two sides to every story so there might have been more to it. 
 

What I didn’t understand was that this was a full completion build using their affiliated contractor so why was the QS necessary at all. 

Edited September 9, 2023 by Kelvin

[eandg]

A good architect/structural engineer (much like any other profession or trade) is worth the money. The problem is there are too few good ones and the prevailing business model (% fees) puts their interests at odds with the client. We did our own plans and are largely very happy with them - partly because our cashflow didn't allow us to spend a fortune on a good architect at the start and partly because the few we spoke to offered very little. As a novice it would have been worth having someone on an incentivised fixed fee to get us through building regs early as material inflation ended up costing us more than that with associated delays. I was also happy PMing but from seeing other self builders who are less confident doing that then a good architect that can PM and has some trusted trades is well worth it. But definitely get a fixed fee. 

[eandg]

And QSing, particularly if you have a kit, is dead easy - lost everything you need and shop about for prices. Don't sweat the small stuff and if you can come in cheaper than your first online look found for some items it'll pay for the inevitable mistakes/trading up that comes when you are finishing and are on or around budget. 

[Gus Potter]

6 minutes ago, eandg said:

A good architect/structural engineer (much like any other profession or trade) is worth the money.

They are.

 

On BH there are plenty folk who have done their research and have a good idea what they want already.

 

If you get your Architect or SE in early then they can do almost a watching brief, give you the benefit of their knowledge and sometimes say.. are you sure you want to do that?.. have you thought about this and that and here is a better way for you to consider.

 

I often say to my Clients, (sometimes they have firm, almost entrenched views) see some of the ideas I come up with.. you won't like them, but that is ok as it's part of the design process and don't be afraid to say so. But on occasion they may say .. we never thought of that!

 

Good design often means at the start throwing everything on the table, most of which gets ruled out.. then you concentrate on maybe one or two options and develop that further.

 

From time to time I work with a QS if the Client wants more certainty, but like all things that comes at a price, and as @Kelvin etc have said not all QS's are briliant!

 

As a designer I most often work on a fixed fee. My fee is built up between my Architectural input vs my SE input, two different rates apply depending on the mix.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[saveasteading]

4 hours ago, eandg said:

list everything you need and shop about for prices. 

Thats not a QS, but a 'buyer'.

 

I've been in the industry 40+ years and see the useful qs role as advising a clent of potential issues in competitive tenders, and assessing interim valuations.

Too often they see themselves as claims arguers. 

 

Retort from any qs on bh??

 

Did you know that the qs was invented by Civil Engineering contractors to assess quantities on railway lines.   One qs instead of them all doing the same thing.  But then they decided to make a profession out of it.

[Dave Jones]

i don't have an issue with paying a decent fee for a decent design. That would mean £1000 tops for a normal sub £750k house.,

 

Treble that fee for a more interesting design, stand out features of which you would not see in 70% of other houses.

 

There is also the question of construction drawings containing enough detail to pass building regs and allow a builder to completely price the build (excluding second fix items). This should be no more than half a days work for a competent architect so another £250-300.

 

All planning i would never use an architect always a planning specialist. Same as I wouldn't use a painter to fit a kitchen.

[Dave Jones]

6 hours ago, saveasteading said:

Thats not a QS, but a 'buyer'.

 

I've been in the industry 40+ years and see the useful qs role as advising a clent of potential issues in competitive tenders, and assessing interim valuations.

Too often they see themselves as claims arguers. 

 

Retort from any qs on bh??

 

Did you know that the qs was invented by Civil Engineering contractors to assess quantities on railway lines.   One qs instead of them all doing the same thing.  But then they decided to make a profession out of it.

 

ive used both site QS and the online ones. Site for getting paid (by the bank) and the online to produce the initial QS for the build.

 

found them pretty much ok and reasonable, also offer advice on alternative methods and materials for some tasks may not have considered. While the on site is an extra cost you see them maybe 4 times total so not massive in the scheme of things. The online QS is where its won or lost, you have to get this correct. you need every single expenditure on it not just the materials and labour.

[ETC]

57 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

i don't have an issue with paying a decent fee for a decent design. That would mean £1000 tops for a normal sub £750k house.,

 

Treble that fee for a more interesting design, stand out features of which you would not see in 70% of other houses.

 

There is also the question of construction drawings containing enough detail to pass building regs and allow a builder to completely price the build (excluding second fix items). This should be no more than half a days work for a competent architect so another £250-300.

 

All planning i would never use an architect always a planning specialist. Same as I wouldn't use a painter to fit a kitchen.

Very very cheap. Please share where you can get a design for £1000 and construction drawings for an extra £250-£300.

[eandg]

7 hours ago, saveasteading said:

Thats not a QS, but a 'buyer'.

 

I've been in the industry 40+ years and see the useful qs role as advising a clent of potential issues in competitive tenders, and assessing interim valuations.

Too often they see themselves as claims arguers. 

 

Retort from any qs on bh??

 

Did you know that the qs was invented by Civil Engineering contractors to assess quantities on railway lines.   One qs instead of them all doing the same thing.  But then they decided to make a profession out of it.

That's fair enough. But the point stands - it's fairly easy to work out what quantity of materials you'll need. 

[saveasteading]

1 hour ago, Dave Jones said:

£1000 tops for a normal sub £750k house.,

Perhaps why we see problems and disappointments  on here so often...cheapest price not  necessarily the best value.

£1,000 won't buy many hours of attention, so this has to be an absolutely standard box on a flag site,  with cut and paste standard details.

[saveasteading]

5 minutes ago, eandg said:

it's fairly easy to work out what quantity of materials you'll need

Well done you then: you have a rare skill. It isn't for most people.

 

[saveasteading]

This came up on facebook!

PLANNING OR BUILDING REGS PACKAGE

£126.32

 

Existing & Propose Floor Plans, Elevations, Section, Block Plan & Site Location Plan.

[Dave Jones]

6 hours ago, saveasteading said:

Perhaps why we see problems and disappointments  on here so often...cheapest price not  necessarily the best value.

£1,000 won't buy many hours of attention, so this has to be an absolutely standard box on a flag site,  with cut and paste standard details.

 

why is it needed for a box ? If the architect is any good a production box should be smashed out in a couple hours. Nothing difficult about it, cut and paste.

[ETC]

26 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

 

why is it needed for a box ? If the architect is any good a production box should be smashed out in a couple hours. Nothing difficult about it, cut and paste.

Rubbish.

[joe90]

On 09/09/2023 at 11:46, Dave Jones said:

architect is worth their money to just design the end appearance.

 

On 06/09/2023 at 22:39, flanagaj said:

The appearance it pretty much already agreed, as we are going to mirror the next door property. 

so why an architect?, if you don’t know what you want then fair enough employ one for suggestions.

[joe90]

3 minutes ago, ETC said:

33 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

 

why is it needed for a box ? If the architect is any good a production box should be smashed out in a couple hours. Nothing difficult about it, cut and paste.

Rubbish.

Well, I designed my “box” myself, fair enough I have been around the building game for a while but I knew what I wanted. I was always getting compliments on its appearance and it did exactly what I wanted 🤷‍♂️

[Big Jimbo]

I've seen work done on here for free by @etc , worth more than a grand. Frankly, the comments on here make you wonder why he bothers.

If i had known about him before, and having seen what he has produced, on here, for people, for free, i would have gladly paid him a few bob, or given a donation to a charity of his choice. I have absolutely no doubt that he would have made my initial design that i got through planning, so much better. In the end, my structural engineer is also an architectural technician, and he did exactly that to the internal layout of both floors.

Seriously, is it not 6 years to qualify as an architect ? There are always going to be shite professionals in all industries. 

[saveasteading]

I often wonder what critics of design fee levels do for a living. What do they earn or expect to earn? Do they pay thousands out of earnings  for design suites, for PI  insurance or for office space? Marketing and pitches take time and make nothing.

Did they have to wait til 25 before earning any real money?

How many projects do they think a designer can reasonably carry out per week / year?

[SteamyTea]

33 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

Did they have to wait til 25 before earning any real money

I am still waiting.

My state pension will be the most consistent earning in my life.

[ETC]

4 hours ago, Big Jimbo said:

I've seen work done on here for free by @etc , worth more than a grand. Frankly, the comments on here make you wonder why he bothers.

If i had known about him before, and having seen what he has produced, on here, for people, for free, i would have gladly paid him a few bob, or given a donation to a charity of his choice. I have absolutely no doubt that he would have made my initial design that i got through planning, so much better. In the end, my structural engineer is also an architectural technician, and he did exactly that to the internal layout of both floors.

Seriously, is it not 6 years to qualify as an architect ? There are always going to be shite professionals in all industries. 

7 years @Big Jimbo 7 long and hard years!!!

 

And thanks for the kind words. I continue to work in the background helping where I can.

[ETC]

2 hours ago, saveasteading said:

I often wonder what critics of design fee levels do for a living. What do they earn or expect to earn? Do they pay thousands out of earnings  for design suites, for PI  insurance or for office space? Marketing and pitches take time and make nothing.

Did they have to wait til 25 before earning any real money?

How many projects do they think a designer can reasonably carry out per week / year?

I once met a guy on site who boasted to me that he’d paid his architect peanuts and went on to tell me how much he’d spent on his heated drive! He had his priorities sorted.

[ETC]

1 hour ago, SteamyTea said:

I am still waiting.

My state pension will be the most consistent earning in my life.

Me too. My wife is still waiting for the big bucks after all these years!

[ETC]

2 hours ago, saveasteading said:

I often wonder what critics of design fee levels do for a living. What do they earn or expect to earn? Do they pay thousands out of earnings  for design suites, for PI  insurance or for office space? Marketing and pitches take time and make nothing.

Did they have to wait til 25 before earning any real money?

How many projects do they think a designer can reasonably carry out per week / year?

According to @Dave Jones you can get a design for £1000 and construction drawings can be done in half a day. Don’t tell anyone but I’ve got this big red button on my laptop that when pushed will spit out a complete set of working drawings in about 10 seconds!

 

I really think some people need to be shown the detail needed for a proper set of construction drawings and the time it takes to do them not to mention the years tracing required to get to that level of competence.