Vaillant ashp (my battle with).

[SteamyTea]

35 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

1m x 0.5m.

Not that big really.

 

Your place is larger than my 48 m² over two floors and I could easily find room for a buffer that size.

 

If your heat load is as great as you claim, which I doubt is actually is (10 kW wood burn to make a small living room almost warm), I doubt if you really need a buffer at all.

 

But, and as you know you will get a but from me, if you insist on running an ASHP like a traditional thermal boiler i.e. 25 or 40 kW blasts for a few minutes every hour during the day time, then let the house over cool at night, then a heat pump will not be given a chance to work effectively.

I seem to remember that you had storage heaters and you struggled to get them to work, and even after many explanations about how they work and the best way to let them work, you still did not set them up correctly.

If you fail to use a system as it is designed to be used, it will fail, but it is failing because of you, not the type of system installed.

I lost count of how many people told you to leave your last system on all the time and let it sort itself out, but you flatly refused to do that, claiming that it made a noise at night.

I very much suspect that the noise, which was probably very minor, would have stopped once the system was up and running within its parameters.

 

It is really down to you to make the system work, not look for spurious reasons as to my it MUST fail, and then make sure it does fail to prove your point.

[zoothorn]

@TonyT look I haven't even been able to establish, in 4 pages, why my 10kw Arotherm split ashp has no buffer.. but the proposed 10kw Arotherm monoblock (which is meant to be a replacement for it).... does.

 

So how on earth I can cope/ consider heat loss calculations, & a volume of water within a cylinder & rads (which will be -exactly the same- why- because it is the very same cylinder & rads).... I have no conception of knowing even why you are insisting on the subject. No idea on gods earth.

 

But thanks for at least, well I don't really know tbh! You're kind & patient that is all I can understand.

 

Zoothorn 

 

 

[sharpener]

24 minutes ago, joe90 said:

Right, you have been told by me and others here that a tank of water makes no noise.

 

+1, it is what I said days ago. I have in the past had a water tank in my bedroom cupboard and it was unnoticeable. If the buffer is technically necessary and that is the only place it can go then it is a simple yes/no decision for you. If they fit it then if it does make a noise then you have a solid reason to get them back and fix it but if they don't fit it in the first place you will never know and not make any progress.

 

Edited August 31, 2023 by sharpener

[zoothorn]

@SteamyTea again I have to say: the running of the ashp, how effective or not, is totally irrelevant.

 

I am forced to have a big tank Not to you, but is to me. Ruinously big.

 

Whether or not the ashp is even turned on, at all, even if I were to unplug the whole thing from the mains... makes NO Difference to Vaillant insisting I have this damn tank.

 

A question: why with my 10kw Arotherm split in the property now, os there no such buffer tank, whstsoever?

 

Can you answer this?

[zoothorn]

6 minutes ago, sharpener said:

 

+1, it is what I said days ago. I have in the past had a water tank in my bedroom cupboard and it was unnoticeable. If the buffer is technically necessary and that is the only place it can go then it is a simple yes/no decision for you. If they fit it then if it does make a noise then you have a solid reason to get them back and fix it but if they don't fit it in the first place you will never know and not make any progress.

 

I trust you guys far more than I do Vaillant Renewables, but none of you have a Vaillant ashp.
 

Your ashp hyraulic unit, every one of you, is not made by Vaillant, & behaves silently enough to not be intrusive.

 

None of you have a Vaillant hydraulic unit.
Nor do any of you have a Vaillant buffer tank.

 

So with respect how can I take any reassurance from you saying your (non-Valiant) buffer is silent?

[SteamyTea]

1 minute ago, zoothorn said:

Can you answer this

Yes, but if you have decided it is going to fail, then no.

Ok, here is my opinion about it.

The reason it is getting a  buffer is because they know from your complaints that you will not run the system as it is designed to be run. So by fitting a large buffer, it can seemingly run more like a traditional boiler i.e. on/off/on/off all day 

It will be using the built in, and possibly supplementary resistance heaters, more than it needs to, but the extra running costs are not down to them, but down to the way you think, in your wisdom, what is best for the system, in what I shall call 'future failure mode'.

 

 

[zoothorn]

4 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Yes, but if you have decided it is going to fail, then no.

Ok, here is my opinion about it.

The reason it is getting a  buffer is because they know from your complaints that you will not run the system as it is designed to be run. So by fitting a large buffer, it can seemingly run more like a traditional boiler i.e. on/off/on/off all day 

It will be using the built in, and possibly supplementary resistance heaters, more than it needs to, but the extra running costs are not down to them, but down to the way you think, in your wisdom, what is best for the system, in what I shall call 'future failure mode'.

 

 

Ok that's rational. But they do not know that I run it not as it's designed to be run. I had no option but turn the wretched thing ALL off, bigass red plastic husge switch, in order to sleep in my own home... they only know this. They do not know I turn off spare bedroom rad because I live alone here. I've never told them this. So, it's a rational assumption thst they know how I run it.. but it's not true.

 

The fitter had no knowledge other than I ran it how it should be run. And he made this buffer addition decision, at very last minute, after his site visit, him considering some aspect or other not privvy to me. 
 

So a buffer has some function. But why I don't have one now, is still not known. If the hydraulic unit -was- working correctly, which the fitter would assume once he installed it, why didn't he make a similar buffer addition decision-??
 

It leads me to think it's entirely a subjective installer's decision, maybe it serves some 'safe addition' water related function.. which isn't perhaps ESSENTIAL. I'm just mulling this along rational thinking, & as no-one can answer why mine has none/ why an exact sized replacement does.
 

How else can I think??

[Beelbeebub]

I think you might be the architect of your own downfall here. 

 

The installer might have concluded there is insufficient system volume based on your reports of noisy defrost. 

 

The original installer might have calculated there was enough system volume based on the assumption the user wasn't surreptitiously turning radiators off. Hence no buffer or volumiser needed. 

 

The new installer would look at the system on his visit and think "hummm... there should be enough volume according to the calculations and my inspections yet the defrost is still behaving like there isn't enough.... There must be something we are missing, best be cautious and stick a big buffer in to make absolutely sure we won't have this problem again!"

 

If you insist on operating the system in a way it's not supposed to be, it's not surprising it misbehaves and if you don't tell the installers you have been doing that, it's unsurprising they struggle to rectify the issues. 

Edited September 1, 2023 by Beelbeebub

[dpmiller]

Zoot, if you can't show us the heat-loss calculations that you *should* have in your possession and quote the model number of the indoor and outdoor units, then it is impossible to answer why the current system has no buffer.

 

If you don't have the heatloss document (and btw no-one is expecting you to create or understand this, that's what you've got us for...) then *that* is surely something you can ask about as it was AFAIK a requirement of your Grant?

[Dave Jones]

he has got the heat loss he said earlier in this nonsense thread. something about a grant and not letting them know.

 

its all for the birds.

[S2D2]

On 28/08/2023 at 13:37, S2D2 said:

Assuming they are replacing with an Arotherm Plus, they have a rather odd step in the minimum system volume dependent on size.

 

10/12kW models: 150l

7kW: 55l

3.5/5kW: 40l

 

I've only just started looking at this but I doubt anyone is fitting a big enough buffer to hit 150l, so I would query this with them as it seems a massive jump from 55l to 150l. Getting down to a 7kW model might solve the headache if you can make up the system volume in the radiators/pipework.

 

You can also drastically reduce the required volume with the 6kW backup heater which is relatively small but will cost more to run, I have no idea how much it would come on for normal usage, I've only just seen that it exists. Including this changes the minimum volumes to:

 

10/12kW models: 45l

7kW: 20l

3.5/5kW: 15l

 

Which you should be able to hit with radiators alone. Information for the larger units here in appendix E: https://www.vaillant.co.uk/downloads/product-brochures/arotherm-plus-230v-double-2626669.pdf

@zoothorn I answered this back on page 2, and again on page 3 when you typed it out in all caps. Maybe I should have typed the response in all caps?

 

With the above picture it is clear. The hydraulic module contains the backup heater, so your current system requires a smaller system volume. Ask them why they aren't fitting the backup heater with the new system. It will cost more to run than a buffer, which may be the reason.

 

If they are, ask to see their system volume calculations and post them here.

 

If you repeat again that nobody has answered this question I highly doubt you'll get any more replies.

[AliG]

You beat me to it @S2D2 I was just checking the installation manual.

 

9 hours ago, zoothorn said:

A question: why with my 10kw Arotherm split in the property now, os there no such buffer tank, whstsoever?

 

The water volume requirements are exactly the same for the split unit and mono block unit. If the split unit has the backup heater why wouldn't the monoblock. Clearly a question for the installer.

 

With this the whole issue goes away.

 

 

 

If the buffer absolutely is needed, you previously posted this picture of the hydraulic unit. It looks to me as if the buffer can fit in there, has the installer looked at this?

 

 

[AliG]

9 hours ago, zoothorn said:

Furthermore, it should be deemed unfit to site ANY part of it within certain house parameters too: a minimum distance from a bed, stated, by Vaillant, in the install manual.

 

I am so damn adamant about this I've demanded it BE considered, to Germany HQ no less.

 

In fact, I think they may have even -updated- their very fitter's install manual WITH my experience & recommendations having been taken into account. No sh!t. Or, lie to me again saying they have of course.

 

@zoothorn you are being absolutely ridiculous here.

 

1. Your unit may be broken and noisier than it should be.

2. Your unit may be noisy due to being installed in a house that is entirely inappropriate for a heat pump.

3. Everyone has different sensitivity to noise whilst they are asleep.

4. Beds can move around so they don't know if a bed will be there when they install the ASHP.

 

Most importantly though, for your own mental health. You have your own problems, don't try and fight the world's battles, it will just get you down.

[ProDave]

Obviously you cannot cope with any heating system that involves water and radiators because water moving through a pipe might make a noise and nobody can guarantee it won't.

 

The company have offered to change your system for a monoblock which puts all the parts that can be expected to make a noise outside. That is the best offer you will get.  A buffer is no more likely to make a noise than water passing through a radiator.  But it seems you cannot accept that risk, you are not prepared to even let them try it.

 

So the best thing you can do is rip out the present system, sell it on ebay as almost new not very much used, and install electric storage heaters that have no moving parts and no water.  but be warned they might make the occasional clicking noise as they warm up overnight and parts expand.

[SteamyTea]

3 minutes ago, ProDave said:

install electric storage heaters that have no moving parts and no water

I think there was storage heaters and some of us spent ages pointing out what Zoot was stopping them from working.

may have been at his parents house.

 

 

[DanDee]

34 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

I think there was storage heaters and some of us spent ages pointing out what Zoot was stopping them from working.

may have been at his parents house.

 

 

I want to say something but I don't know what to say.

[SteamyTea]

25 minutes ago, DanDee said:

I want to say something but I don't know what to say.

Does it begin with C

[zoothorn]

4 hours ago, Beelbeebub said:

I think you might be the architect of your own downfall here. 

 

The installer might have concluded there is insufficient system volume based on your reports of noisy defrost. 

 

The original installer might have calculated there was enough system volume based on the assumption the user wasn't surreptitiously turning radiators off. Hence no buffer or volumiser needed. 

 

The new installer would look at the system on his visit and think "hummm... there should be enough volume according to the calculations and my inspections yet the defrost is still behaving like there isn't enough.... There must be something we are missing, best be cautious and stick a big buffer in to make absolutely sure we won't have this problem again!"

 

If you insist on operating the system in a way it's not supposed to be, it's not surprising it misbehaves and if you don't tell the installers you have been doing that, it's unsurprising they struggle to rectify the issues. 

Sorry this makes no sense to me. I've said this too: The installer has no knowledge that I have used the prior system 'wrong' (this alone is infuriating: I have no option but turn it off to sleep!!).. no knowledge other than the system is defective & to be replaced. 
 

The new installer is A) not the original installer. B ) has no knowledge of the noise complaints, history of the old system: I asked him & he was 'meh.. I'm just evaluating the new system, all I know is old was is defective & a different yet similar sized one to be fitted'. 
 

So essentially he gas come to a new house, & doing his usual job of evaluating where the units will go. Whilst talking with me, the homeowner.

 

It seems now folks are clutching at straws, scrambling for a conjectured reason why a buffer has been proposed when one is absent now. It simply now feels like everyone is siding with Vaillant/ the fitter, & siding against me. Typical of forums- a pack forms. Single out the weakest type instinctive thing. Bind together the pack.

 

I should've just asked: can anyone who definitively knows the answer, answer the question? If not, perhaps best not give a personal theory.. because it adds to stress, as I feel inclined to answer the post for being rude to ignore it.

[zoothorn]

2 hours ago, DanDee said:

I want to say something but I don't know what to say.

I'll say it. Their storage heaters -still- belt out heat at 3am, flat out, which is impossible for me to comprehend as a design.

 

I cannot for the life of me work them out. I do a thread, yiu guys say that one's broken if it's doing that. I inform my folks, who spend £1.5k on two new storage heaters following this BH hub advice that the heater is kaput. Another had identical symptoms.

 

A year later I find the new ones... do exactly this nonsensical on hot at 3 am thing. I ask on here, perplexed. "Oh they're meant to do that, that's normal".

 

£1500 to my broke old folks, is a huge ammount of money- wasted.

 

There- I'll answer for you. Ok?

[SteamyTea]

3 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

The installer has no knowledge that I have used the prior system 'wrong' (this alone is infuriating: I have no option but turn it off to sleep!!)

They have been reading your posts.  Companies have software and people people to monitor the interweb for negative comments.

They may have been tipped off as well.

 

You have been given advice, and yet again, you refuse to take it on board, and even fail to do your own research.

Then get narky with the people that genuinely try to help.

 

 

 

[zoothorn]

I cannot stand this pack sniping at me, just started, now snowballing. The usuals appearances now from under their bridge with a snidy 1 liner. 

 

If you can't help, just don't post. Simple. Go away, & expend your need for sniping somewhere else please.

 

Thank you, Zh

[zoothorn]

4 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

They have been reading your posts.  Companies have software and people people to monitor the interweb for negative comments.

They may have been tipped off as well.

 

You have been given advice, and yet again, you refuse to take it on board, and even fail to do your own research.

Then get narky with the people that genuinely try to help.

 

 

 

Bar the idea of housing it outside, or in loft, haven't been given any advice ST. Theories only on why possibly this tank is being proposed.. isn't too helpful tbh. I need absolute clarity as to why there is none now but one proposed. Then I -may- be in a better position to challenge the decision:  either to reduce it's huge size, or go without it.

 

I think it boils down to whether there might have been someone here who -knows well the differences- between 'split' ashp's & monoblock ashp's..... as this wording is the only difference I know between the two 10kw systems. To words that mean little to the average customer.  
 

Do I need to know what exactly has been 'split' to dial a temp in, run a hot tap? No. Does my mum know how a thermostat tagged to her car engine block works, to press pedals/ turn wheels & drive her car? No. She is not expected to know. She doesn't need to know. Injection. Its written in her car! Dies sge know even what is being injected, where? FFS even I don't!!!!

 

Zoot

[SteamyTea]

11 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

I cannot stand this pack sniping at me, just started, now snowballing.

I had a girlfriend with similar personality traits.

Started out as simple misery, then moved to anger, then desperation and finally, after being dropped form the social circle, coercive control.

She then went on to try her usually tricks, basically 'I don't understand, no one will help, It does not work, everyone hates me' at work and her first marriage.

She now lives in the same village as one of our inactive members and causes trouble in the village.

 

Good luck getting it sorted, and I will look forward to the next instalment, they always brighten up my day.

 

Edited September 1, 2023 by SteamyTea

[SteamyTea]

2 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

haven't been given any advice ST

You are on a website that if full of advice and examples.

Try reading though it.

[Big Jimbo]

Zoot the Hoot. Having read some of the posts here are my thoughts. You are going to have to accept some stuff.

You don't understand a lot of the technical stuff. Neither do i.

You talk too much, and in riddles. I talk too much.

My thoughts are that you have Three options.

1. Accept what you are being told by valliant.

2. Tell them to bugger off.

3. This is what i would do..... When the bloke comes around to do all your heat loss calcs, rad sizing, equipment requirements etc. Ask him if he could spare you 15 mins. Make him a cuppa, and press £20 into his hand. Forget all the crap that has gone on before, nobody will be interested in hearing that.

I usually start with. "I'm as thick as shit when it comes to ASHP. Can you talk me through what you are going to do, and try to explain it to me as if i was a 10 year old. Then shut the f up and let him have his 15mins. At the end you are permitted to ask him to clarify a couple of things if necessary. These questions should relate to how to operate the system, to get the best out of it. Not questioning why he is fitting that, or not fitting this. He is the designer, not you. You have to have some trust in people who know better than you. (i stuggle with that, but thats life.

Then let them get on with it. Remember, It ain't gonna be any worse than what you have already.

Best of luck bud.