Tying steels to ICF

[ToughButterCup]

Have a look at this;

 

This is a view into our Winter Garden from way above the roof. The yellow column represents (way out of scale) one of three vertical steels, each of which supports horizontals which in turn support the barn-style cladding. For clarity, I have omitted the other two verticals and all the horizontals.

 

The winter garden is an empty area, outside the heated envelope (see the slats allowing air to circulate) The steel structure is linked to the house : how is my question?

We could

• drill into the ICF and bolt it on that way or
• we could embed anchors in the ICF and drill the steels to suit on site

The first is messier than the second.

 

There is no guidance from the SE (Tanners) on how we should marry the house ICF and the Steels. But, (I have learned to ask), how hard can it be? I mean we could just pop down to Halfords and buy some cheap M6 nuts and bolts eh?........ well perhaps not.

 

 

[MikeSharp01]

Interesting Ian. I guess you don't need to worry about cold bridging so as long as you get the anchors well into the concrete core of the ICF that should do it.Do the three steel columns form a stand alone structure? (IE would it stand up without the walls or are the walls doing the racking work I wonder). If not stand alone then fixing might have to be done through two sides (at 90deg) so you have racking strength transferred to the steels in two plains.

 

 

Edited August 17, 2017 by MikeSharp01
Typo

[PeterW]

I'd want to embed a T plate into the ICF with it being secured to the concrete and the rebar. This would have 4 No. M16 studs welded to it and then make a template for drilling the corresponding holes into the vertical steel when on site. The plate means you get it perfectly plumb with the lower plate and also stops the steel trying to compress the ICF and ensures everything stays plumb. 

[ToughButterCup]

Hmmm. I feel a phonecall to Tanners coming on.....

Ian

[ToughButterCup]

29 minutes ago, MikeSharp01 said:

[...]

(IE would it stand up without the walls or are the walls doing the racking work I wonder). If not stand alone then fixing might have to be done through two sides (at 90deg) so you have racking strength transferred to the steels in two plains.

 

Forgive my lack of understanding.... racking?

[ToughButterCup]

30 minutes ago, PeterW said:

I'd want to embed a T plate into the ICF with it being secured to the concrete and the rebar. [...]

 

Let's say the worst comes to the worst and we have to pour (Tuesday and Wednesday of next week - architect's on holiday and so is Tanners) without a decision on placing T pieces inside the ICF .

Could we 'bolt it on' (the Wintergarden) from the outside?

 

For the sake of interest I attach the Briefing Pack I prepared for expressions of interest in doing the steels and the cladding

WinterGardenBriefingReducedSize.pdf

[MikeSharp01]

 

12 minutes ago, recoveringacademic said:

Forgive my lack of understanding.... racking?

 

Oooooops.... If you had a square made of four bits of timber with a nail at each corner you could squeeze it quite easily into a diamond shape - that is racking. If you put a diagonal across the square, nailed at each end, it becomes two triangles and suddenly it is much stiffer you won;t be able to deform it to a diamond without bending or breaking it - so the diagonal gives the structure racking strength. Your steels, uprights and horizontal members are in effect the square. Once you fix them to the wall the wall effectively becomes the diagonal member and makes the structure stiffer.  It may be that the SE has already specified diagonal members in the steel frame in which case the wall is probably not needed to do the racking unless they have designed the cross braces to do half the racking strength work and the wall the other half - which I doubt.

[Lesgrandepotato]

I know nothing of the structure, but I'm loving the winter garden concept! It needs some fabulous lighting- some sort of gently glowing orbs and a banana tree 

[PeterW]

If you had to you could bury an offcut of RSJ (254x133 would work) on its side with the plates in line with each other and then bolt the steel to that. 

[ToughButterCup]

8 minutes ago, Lesgrandepotato said:

I know nothing of the structure, but I'm loving the winter garden concept! It needs some fabulous lighting- some sort of gently glowing orbs and a banana tree 

You need to meet Debbie.... Her idea 

[iSelfBuild]

If you go for the socket option and need any fixing sockets designed for precast concrete let me know. 

[mvincentd]

Time short so might have misunderstood but;

With your drawings do you have one or two entitled 'structural notes' maybe....which might have a section on 'steelwork', subsection 'connections'.

Mine say for example; "All connections to comprise 4 no' m20 (8.8) bolts unless noted otherwise".

Then on my plans it'll just say "steel beam to be face fixed to concrete"....otherwise they're sitting in beam pockets which have individual detailed drawings for how they're cast.

[Sandybay]

Looking into using integraspec ICF blocks, was told by supplier only need rebar above openings? 

Any thoughts on this? 

Thanks. 

[Russell griffiths]

There is very little reinforcement needed in a domestic 2 storey icf house, mainly openings, and between pours, you will need a good structural engineer, you will probably need one who is familiar with your chosen block. 

 

Out of interest have you had a and a price for these, as I’m curious as I had a good chat with the rep the other day and would like to compare it to what I have used. 

[Sandybay]

Hi,

I have had a quote from ICF Scotland for everything I would need to build 142 sqm bungalow, he used to sell nudura, but was having some problems so now stocks integraspec don't know how good a system it is but has longevity behind it, been on the go for ages, so thinking the blocks must be good? 

Blocks, corners and plastic Web as per quote came to around £6800.

Don't know how that compares to other systems. 

Thanks . 

Edited March 31, 2019 by Sandybay
Spelling

[Alexphd1]

Looks a competitive quote. There was a good ICF thread on icf wall m2 cost. Remember to look at the whole package inc support from supplier, bracing, Speak to previous customers etc

 

I did came across a ICF build where the self builder was going on what the rep advised before the structural engineer done the sums.... was a bit of a mess in the end! 

[Sandybay]

Hi,

Yes there seems a lot more to it than just the blocks, the Guy from ICF Scotland seemed very knowledgeable and helpful, so that's good, 

I joined this forum to see if I could gain any more information about ICF building before our project starts, 

Ideally would like to speak to someone living in an ICF home whose not trying to sell you something. 

[scottishjohn]

On 31/03/2019 at 19:47, Sandybay said:

Hi,

I have had a quote from ICF Scotland for everything I would need to build 142 sqm bungalow, he used to sell nudura, but was having some problems so now stocks integraspec don't know how good a system it is but has longevity behind it, been on the go for ages, so thinking the blocks must be good? 

Blocks, corners and plastic Web as per quote came to around £6800.

Don't know how that compares to other systems. 

Thanks . 

you do know integra spec are made in ireland and you can get quote from them direct --might be worth a comparison 

[Sandybay]

Hi,

I didn't know that, Thanks for the information.