Design and build turnkey options

[Bournbrook]

Hi all

 

i hope I’m posting this on the right place. Just exploring some options in terms of building and designing. 
 

currently looking to build a singe storey dwelling in our back garden (around 130sqm). 
 

We have a young family and both work full time so realistically need to use some kind of turnkey service, even though it will cost a lot more!

 

Ive done quite a bit of looking around prefab turnkey services and the likes of haufhaus, scandihus, scotframe , hebhomes etc etc seem to offer a design and architectural service. We wouldn’t want to use an off the shelve version.  I have a couple of questions:

 

- are these architects actually as bothered about getting the most from a plot as possible or just shoehorning in their existing designs?

 

- any idea how using their service works cost wise vs taking an architects drawings to them. 

 

- can you just take some initial designs to these companies (from an architect) and then they take it from there?

 

- does anyone have any prefab turnkey company recommendations?

 

As I say, the reason for this approach is lack of time to manage the process and also it’s time sensitive as we would be taking some kind of bridging loan/second mortgage (tbc). Totally open to other options though!

 

Thanks 

 

 

[eandg]

My only experience with this is from speaking with a couple - Fleming Homes and Scotframe - in the early stages of our project development. Both said they rarely manufacture their bog standard designs (everyone puts at least a wee twist on it) and they were happy to work with what we had planned. I didn't get the impression that they'd do an awful lot of work on the design though (and they wouldn't visit and consider things like orientation) - but at a couple of grand their design costs were cheaper or equivalent to any architectural technician who'd just do the same, so the question is whether you'd prefer to pay an extra 5-20 grand for an architect to do that job for you. Both of those companies just do supply and erect the kit (with some provision of follow-on materials but you need to DIY/organise trades). 

[Nickfromwales]

2 hours ago, Katie AG said:

Hi all

 

i hope I’m posting this on the right place. Just exploring some options in terms of building and designing. 
 

currently looking to build a singe storey dwelling in our back garden (around 130sqm). 
 

We have a young family and both work full time so realistically need to use some kind of turnkey service, even though it will cost a lot more!

 

Ive done quite a bit of looking around prefab turnkey services and the likes of haufhaus, scandihus, scotframe , hebhomes etc etc seem to offer a design and architectural service. We wouldn’t want to use an off the shelve version.  I have a couple of questions:

 

- are these architects actually as bothered about getting the most from a plot as possible or just shoehorning in their existing designs?

 

- any idea how using their service works cost wise vs taking an architects drawings to them. 

 

- can you just take some initial designs to these companies (from an architect) and then they take it from there?

 

- does anyone have any prefab turnkey company recommendations?

 

As I say, the reason for this approach is lack of time to manage the process and also it’s time sensitive as we would be taking some kind of bridging loan/second mortgage (tbc). Totally open to other options though!

 

Thanks 

 

 

I've worked alongside MBC TF on a few of their turnkey PH foundation and guaranteed airtight frame projects. I'm very impressed with what they offer, how quickly the house goes up, and what the end results are ( I got one in at 0.27 ACH which they said was their best result in over 7 years of trading ). TF is very good to get exceptional scores with, but cellulose-blown vs SIPs is just a hands-down winner for me. The sound seems to travel through rigid insulation walls vs cellulose filled frames, and the decrement delay is about as good as it gets. Certainly meant the M&E side was a lot easier and I could spec MVHR to suit the AT score, which also translated into a massively reduced heating system spec.

Choose well, as a fabric-first approach will defo pay huge dividends.  

[SuperJohnG]

Don't discount doing it yourselves (no one will care as much as you guys do) even though you've got a young family. I've got a 9 Yr old, 4 Yr old, both with full time jobs and we are about 4 weeks away from moving into our 300sqm SIPS house. 

 

And to boot I had a stroke in August and spent 6 weeks in hospital. Anything is possible. 

 

But absolutely a fabric first approach. We were heating our full house (which has vaulted ceilings) with a 1.5kW oil filled heater. It was a balmy 13 degrees inside when it was -7 outside. 

[Kelvin]

If you pay architect money then they should design a house that suits the plot and the area. If you go to the timber kit companies then they might have a design that suits your plot that could be modified but won’t necessarily be ideal.  
 

Building the house oriented correctly on the plot is extremely important for all sorts of reasons. We nearly came a cropper with this with our kit. The orientation was straightforward enough but site access was a challenge. Long story short the kit company’s first attempt meant bringing in thousands of tonnes of material to level up the ground despite me telling them this was a stupid approach. Wasted 2 months of time. At one point they even said they couldn’t work on our design any longer as they don’t have the resources to do it.
 

Therefore if it’s a difficult plot then it could stretch the kit companies beyond their ability. 

 

From a design cost perspective the kit companies ought to be cheaper as most let you slightly modify their standard designs for free. If you make a lot of changes or keep changing then most will start charging you by the hour at circa £90/hr ex. Taking drawings or just initial ideas to them will vary from company to company I expect. Some will be able to take them and turn them into fabrication drawings for their kits others might not work that way. That’s a conversation you’d need to have with them. 
 

We are using Heb Homes. If I was doing it again I’d go with MBC on an insulated raft. 

 

Edited April 19, 2023 by Kelvin

[SteamyTea]

6 hours ago, SuperJohnG said:

And to boot I had a stroke in August and spent 6 weeks in hospital.

Are you back to normal now?

Well as normal as any self builder.

[Kelvin]

To add. You’re doing the right thing in thinking about all of this now. We went too quickly I think and based our very early decisions on the look we wanted. It was only when I learnt more about it all (fabric first) from here and some books that I realised we should have spent more time researching building methods etc. I was being driven by the impending war in Ukraine and the impact it might have on the economy driving costs up even higher than post lockdown/COVID driven inflation. My plan was to start digging in the ground the day after we completed on the land 😂 How naive was I! Wiser now and sustained my first build injury yesterday when I slipped down my trailer and cracked two ribs. 

Edited April 19, 2023 by Kelvin

[Iceverge]

Welcome @Katie AG. 

 

You're starting in the right place. I would get a few requirements for your house together along your budget and post them here. 

 

People will let you know if it's realistic. 

 

Then maybe a few pics of the site and a general feel for the style of houses in the area. Nothing need be identifiable of course but that should allow you to get some ideas together for what is buildable and affordable. 

 

You could then take that to an architect or architect technician and get proper drawings done. Unfortunately starting with the architect has led many into a position where the house is unbuildable and unaffordable. 

 

While the idea of a kit house out of the box is nice butvery few of them actually exist and those that do are expensive. The kit normally amounts to the walls and roof without finishing, a relatively modest part of the final bill . A good builder using locally available materials can be a way to avoid the financial risk associated with shelling out a huge lump sum to one provider. 

 

good luck.

[Kelvin]

The up front cost with no financial protection is a key point that I didn’t grasp right at the start. In our case the kit includes all the panels, insulation, external and internal membranes, all 3G windows and doors, and all the steelwork. Consequently it’s a lot of cash I’ve had to pay in stages with no financial protection and I tried everything with the kit supplier to put something in place to no avail. This caused me an inordinate amount of stress as I’m a born worrier generally. 

[Buzz]

sustained my first build injury yesterday when I slipped down my trailer and cracked two ribs. 

 

@Kelvin

I bet they hurt this morning,  hope you have a accident free day today 

[Kelvin]

Only when I laugh (cough, talk, move, sneeze, breathe 😂) 

[SteamyTea]

4 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

sneeze

I found that was the worse. You know it is coming and there is sweet FA you can do to stop it.

[Andehh]

3 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

I found that was the worse. You know it is coming and there is sweet FA you can do to stop it.

 

aaaaachoo with extra AAAAHHHH??

[SuperJohnG]

15 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

Are you back to normal now?

Well as normal as any self builder.

Not quite, much closer but the physical side (which is all my stroke was) I'm still working on. But I've went from not being able to walk myself to jogging myself now, but still far away from my targets. 

[Bournbrook]

On 19/04/2023 at 06:55, Kelvin said:

If you pay architect money then they should design a house that suits the plot and the area. If you go to the timber kit companies then they might have a design that suits your plot that could be modified but won’t necessarily be ideal.  
 

Building the house oriented correctly on the plot is extremely important for all sorts of reasons. We nearly came a cropper with this with our kit. The orientation was straightforward enough but site access was a challenge. Long story short the kit company’s first attempt meant bringing in thousands of tonnes of material to level up the ground despite me telling them this was a stupid approach. Wasted 2 months of time. At one point they even said they couldn’t work on our design any longer as they don’t have the resources to do it.
 

Therefore if it’s a difficult plot then it could stretch the kit companies beyond their ability. 

 

From a design cost perspective the kit companies ought to be cheaper as most let you slightly modify their standard designs for free. If you make a lot of changes or keep changing then most will start charging you by the hour at circa £90/hr ex. Taking drawings or just initial ideas to them will vary from company to company I expect. Some will be able to take them and turn them into fabrication drawings for their kits others might not work that way. That’s a conversation you’d need to have with them. 
 

We are using Heb Homes. If I was doing it again I’d go with MBC on an insulated raft. 

 

Thanks for this Kelvin. Are you using an ‘off the shelf’ HH design or is it modified? If so, I’d be interested to see your floor plan vs the standard HH version. I love their longhouses but we need an L shape due to our plot size. Have spoken to a couple of architects now and they both think so. 
 

We don’t have a tricky plot, it’s just small. It may also prove difficult to get good solar gain due to the orientation of the house (architects said it was better to keep it similar to next doors in order to improve pp chances). They can do some feasibility drawings and basic designs for about £1500, so I may go for this and then take those ideas to some companies. 
 

I’ve drawn some basics site plans which essentially just mirror the nextdoors property footprint onto our plot (as it’s an identical plot) and drafted a D&A statement just to put the feelers to planners before committing to money on an architect!

[Bournbrook]

On 19/04/2023 at 09:23, Iceverge said:

Welcome @Katie AG. 

 

You're starting in the right place. I would get a few requirements for your house together along your budget and post them here. 

 

People will let you know if it's realistic. 

 

Then maybe a few pics of the site and a general feel for the style of houses in the area. Nothing need be identifiable of course but that should allow you to get some ideas together for what is buildable and affordable. 

 

You could then take that to an architect or architect technician and get proper drawings done. Unfortunately starting with the architect has led many into a position where the house is unbuildable and unaffordable. 

 

While the idea of a kit house out of the box is nice butvery few of them actually exist and those that do are expensive. The kit normally amounts to the walls and roof without finishing, a relatively modest part of the final bill . A good builder using locally available materials can be a way to avoid the financial risk associated with shelling out a huge lump sum to one provider. 

 

good luck.

Thanks. I did do an introductory post and now spoken to a couple of architects and it seems we could do something for about 3000sqm. They suggested keeping it very simple to stay within that budget. I think we may end up getting up a basic version and then adding/finishing bits once we’ve moved in and released capital from the sale of our house. 
 

I like the idea of just using a local main contractor to do it all, but I just worry about speed! I’ve been looking into finance and we would need to take out a development (bridging) loan which would be thousands per month, so we’d be keen to get something build as quickly as possible! (And then suffer the stress of trying to sell off the main house)

[Bournbrook]

On 18/04/2023 at 23:21, Nickfromwales said:

I've worked alongside MBC TF on a few of their turnkey PH foundation and guaranteed airtight frame projects. I'm very impressed with what they offer, how quickly the house goes up, and what the end results are ( I got one in at 0.27 ACH which they said was their best result in over 7 years of trading ). TF is very good to get exceptional scores with, but cellulose-blown vs SIPs is just a hands-down winner for me. The sound seems to travel through rigid insulation walls vs cellulose filled frames, and the decrement delay is about as good as it gets. Certainly meant the M&E side was a lot easier and I could spec MVHR to suit the AT score, which also translated into a massively reduced heating system spec.

Choose well, as a fabric-first approach will defo pay huge dividends.  

Thanks. I think MBC are coming our tops from my desk research. 
many idea on cost per sqm on their turnkey stuff? What’s the sort of build time?

 

[Kelvin]

19 minutes ago, Katie AG said:

Thanks for this Kelvin. Are you using an ‘off the shelf’ HH design or is it modified? If so, I’d be interested to see your floor plan vs the standard HH version. I love their longhouses but we need an L shape due to our plot size. Have spoken to a couple of architects now and they both think so. 
 

 

We’ve amended (by quite a bit) the 702PD by widening the porch bit by 1m and then extending it 16m across the width of the house (which is 17m) We also doubled the size of the dormer to get a shower and bath in. We’ve turned the upstairs into a master bedroom suite with bedroom on one side and an open plan dressing/sitting area rather than two bedrooms. Downstairs we made the  lobby wider by stealing some space from the plant room and utility room. We also removed the kitchen worktop and cupboards along the back wall and changed the design of it slightly. I’ll send you the floor plans to a pm. 

[Nickfromwales]

1 hour ago, Katie AG said:

Thanks. I think MBC are coming our tops from my desk research. 
many idea on cost per sqm on their turnkey stuff? What’s the sort of build time?

 

No idea on price, but they’ll quote for you without issue. 
Build time = bloody fast! 
One project was 300m2 2-storey, double attached garage, loads of steel / open spaces, 5.4m vaulted ceilings in all 3 bedrooms, parapet / balcony for each bedroom. 
From a hole in the ground to a finished structure in 31 days ( broken up by a few weeks whilst the concrete cured ). 
Unbelievable pace. And I got that AT score down to 0.27ACH. MBC guarantee 0.6 or better as standard with their turnkey.

Factor in peripheral costs savings downstream of their departure when comparing costs. They leave the build pretty much ready to plasterboard internal / clad externally. 👌

[Iceverge]

1 hour ago, Katie AG said:

and it seems we could do something for about 3000sqm.

 

I assume you mean £3000/m2. If so that is a healthy budget. 

 

Ours probably cost about €1900/m2 pre covid once you factor in my labour, but that was beds dressed, walls painted etc etc. 

 That's including VAT too so an equivalent pre covid cost in sterling might be about £1500/m2. 

 

MBC were about £390/m2 in 2019 but that excludes quite lot. With the twinwall frame they have the best thought out system I know of however. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Thorfun]

1 hour ago, Katie AG said:

architects said it was better to keep it similar to next doors in order to improve pp chances

 

1 hour ago, Katie AG said:

I’ve drawn some basics site plans which essentially just mirror the nextdoors property footprint onto our plot (as it’s an identical plot) and drafted a D&A statement just to put the feelers to planners before committing to money on an architect!

the above 2 statements really, to me, defeat the main benefit of self-building and that is building something bespoke that you want and not just something that looks the same as someone else or something similar to 'improve pp chances'. you run the risk of building a house that someone else wants rather than what you want. seriously reconsider this. also sounds like the architects are being a bit lazy. could do with chatting some architects who are passionate about designing a house for you!

 

1 hour ago, Katie AG said:

we would need to take out a development (bridging) loan which would be thousands per month, so we’d be keen to get something build as quickly as possible! (And then suffer the stress of trying to sell off the main house)

just a word of warning here....we bought our plot because the previous owners bought it with a bridging loan and then couldn't sell their primary residence and it got to the point where they just had to sell one of them. put both their primary residence and this place up for sale and whichever sold first they'd keep the other and either stay where they were or build their dream home. they ended up losing loads of money because of the bridging loan and not being able to sell their primary residence. just beware, i'm sure we're all aware of how long selling a house can take and how fraught with danger and stress it is without having high interest bridging loan payments to pay or the risk of losing it all to a bridging loan company.

 

[Kelvin]

I can’t agree more with @Thorfun While you should have a look at what has achieved planning near you, don’t just copy the neighbour. You can evoke whatever the style is to improve your chances or try for something very different as councils aren’t averse to this. Possibly a bit rich coming from someone who has taken a standard design and modified it a bit which is basically two rectangles with different roofs. However there’s nothing else like it anywhere nearby. 
 

His second point is the most important as I also know someone that got into a real financial hole doing exactly what you’re suggesting. He lost his plot and very nearly lost his house at one point. Clearly we don’t know your financial position and you sound like you are doing all the right research.
 

We could have built and stayed in our previous house without bridging loans then sold up and moved into the new house. However I’m too risk averse to do that and, as it turned out, we would have got about £80k less for our house I reckon had we waited. Our old neighbour can’t sell their somewhat similar house at all in 6 months whereas we sold ours in a few weeks a year ago. 

[Bournbrook]

Thanks both. 

 

I’ve just spoken to a broker actually and it may be that a self build mortgage is a safer option for us. Just need to weigh a few bits up and maybe beg to the bank of mum and dad and offer them a decent interest rate!

 

in terms of copying neighbours, I certainly don’t mean building the same as them (it’s a horrible retirement bungalow), but more the footprint. It’s actually just the most sensible shape and maximises the house size whilst keeping a sensible shape garden and avoid a root protection area. It also allows for a turning circle as cars need to be able to leave in a forward gear. 
 

If anyone’s interested I’ll happy pm the site plan over for you to take a look at but would prefer to keep out of the public domain at this stage!

[Furnace]

6 hours ago, Katie AG said:

I’ve drawn some basics site plans which essentially just mirror the nextdoors property footprint onto our plot (as it’s an identical plot) and drafted a D&A statement just to put the feelers to planners before committing to money on an architect!

Welcome Katie,
I'll throw in my penny's worth...I'm pretty clueless about design, but believe that a particular site can accommodate lots of designs - many of which don't suit the site. Views, orientation, likely usage of outside spaces, slopes etc. are what drives the design just as much as a desirable internal layout.
Many on this forum are experienced in this area, or are naturally good at it, and this renders an architect less useful. I chose to work with one (and a planning consultant too) up to the planning stage (May 19th is my Determination Date 🤞) since I wanted someone to both hold my hand (I'm single) and provide experience. They weren't cheap and of course it's possible I could have come up with a good successful design without them.

It's also interesting how taking time over the process helps to provide perspective on decisions - don't rush it.
Good luck
M

[Kelvin]

Don’t rush it is great advice. We did or I did and there are things we would have done differently as a consequence.