astronomical energy bill for building site - what to do

[Wumpus]

15 minutes ago, Omnibuswoman said:

 

You're right, I need to get a grip and just concentrate on being more effective. To be fair to me, I'm not feeling great today and have just tested positive for covid, so I shall use that to explain/apologise for being so annoyed this morning and will speak to him properly and fairly tomorrow. It's important to keep the two things separate - the irritation about the bill, and my concerns about his lack of site/employee management.

I have a couple of thoughts, and I hope they come over the right way.

First, undertaking any project like this is hard so do cut yourself some slack. It’s a long slog and will be a lot easier with a trusted contractor, but mistakes happen on all sides. It sounds like he’s well intentioned, and that is worth a lot.

 

Second thought is that you can’t be on site every day, so you need him to care about the details as if it were his own house. Getting to good airtightness takes a lot of attention, minimising thermal bridges does not happen by accident and if he’s not checking the subbies and there every day, how can he be confident you will get the results you need? The electric bill seems to be a small symptom of a bigger oversight question?

[Canski]

4 hours ago, Omnibuswoman said:

They're on a day rate unfortunately,

That’s the source of the problem. 

[SteamyTea]

8 hours ago, Kelvin said:

I realise it’s 240 miles but I’d still be making the weekly trip at least until things seem on track. 

Last year I was doing a slightly longer trip every week, now down to once a fortnight.  I used to drive 50 to 70k miles as part of my working life, but I was 30 at the time.

It takes it toll, I am rattling almost as much as my car.

[Dave Jones]

7 hours ago, Canski said:

That’s the source of the problem. 

 

yup total madness. the electricity you are being robbed for will be the tip of the iceberg.

[Moonshine]

8 hours ago, Canski said:

That’s the source of the problem. 

 

I have people on daily's and it's a bit of a nightmare even with my site next door and me visiting site every day.

I couldn't do it with a remote site, too many people take the piss.

[Jilly]

10 hours ago, Omnibuswoman said:

- the irritation about the bill, and my concerns about his lack of site/employee management.

They are not unrelated. I would present myself as 'extremely worried' , show the bill, and say you need to take a raincheck as you are running out of money. It will slow the build down, but to me it's the only way to get control back if you are not on site. Everyday they are on site piddling about you are haemorrhaging money unawares.

 

Say you need prices as its got out of control. Let him sense your panic so he panics that he might lose the job in the nicest way. I ended up with a day rate, so I was there constantly. I really wouldn't trust anyone otherwise, its too open to accidental or intentional abuse.

 

All the best.

[ToughButterCup]

Ugh, this thread.... Should be compulsory reading for all. 

 

It's got it all. Overtrading owner, Corns with massive chips on their shoulders desperate to make a point -that Emmet's needs akikin' and an owner too polite to put soom bloody stick about.

 

And all I can do to help is wince and clutch my wither.

 

There's no point in telling you to go down there and - in a staged but convincing way- lose your temper by bringing two verbal bricks together smartly such that there's an involuntary intake of breath on their part?

[SteamyTea]

After a hair cut and a relaxing hot bath, I have thought about this.

There is no surefire way to deal with it.

So just call Dan up (hope it is not the builder Dan I know), and say.

"Your lads have landed me a (expletive deleted)ing £1500 bill for electric".

 

Probably no more needs to be said after that.

 

I will say that no matter what you say to a Cornishman, the first or second question they will ask is "How much was that then".

Then start to obfuscate to a ridiculous level.

Answers should be 12 words or less.

[Jilly]

It's very ironic that they are building a Passive House...

 

 

I think we need a 'conciliatory hug' icon. 

Edited March 7, 2023 by Jilly

[markc]

This is thought provoking .. I wonder how many people have ever ‘wasted’ some of their employers money? Maybe left the heating, lights or air-con on when it wasn’t required? Used a company vehicle or fuel for their own use? Taken something home from work? 

[SteamyTea]

17 minutes ago, markc said:

This is thought provoking .. I wonder how many people have ever ‘wasted’ some of their employers money? Maybe left the heating, lights or air-con on when it wasn’t required? Used a company vehicle or fuel for their own use? Taken something home from work? 

All the time.

I thought it was compulsory.

Why do you think I started driving diesels. 

 

"Steal a little and they throw you in jail, steal a lot and they make you king"

[Omnibuswoman]

I've enjoyed reading the various reactions, and understand the range of views.

 

We've called a meeting with Dan, and his office manager/finance person, for later this week to discuss exactly how the costs incurred on this stage compare to the very detailed quote he gave us - the costs are being tracked against the original quote, which was the 'target price' set out in the contract - so that we can see if labour costs are coming in higher than expected.

 

HWMBO said that if the costs being incurred are in line with the quote, then he doesn't favour kicking off about idling about on site. I agree that after having examined the original quote very thoroughly indeed, line by line, we did feel that it was representative of an acceptable pace of work and therefore if they are on track with that we should accept that there isn't a significant degree of piss taking going on. However, the heater is now off, and staying off. When they returned to site this morning, I heard one of them comment that the workshop was colder inside than the outside temperature. Perhaps that will encourage them to hang out in there less. 

 

They are battening the outside of the house at the moment, ready for the renderboard to go up. I wonder if anyone has a view on how long it should take three men to batten the outside of a house that is 230m2? It's a simple rectangle - 11m by 8.7m. They've been at it for 5 whole days now, and I'm still wondering if they should have finished by now...

 

The electricity bill is the subject of a separate email in which we very strongly made the point about how shocking and upsetting it was to see use of electricity at 58kWh per day (for the 70 working days on site that the bill covered), and that this demonstrated a failure to exercise proper stewardship of our resources. We have asked him to pay towards the bill, and will see what he comes back with about that. @Jilly we also made the point that this represented almost 100% of our anticipated annual electricity use for our entire  house, AND that given that this is meant to be an environmentally conscious build of a low energy house, it is especially galling to see such shocking energy waste. I suspect he will offer us something, as this is an important project for him.

 

Very much appreciate all of your kind and thoughful replies. Here is a picture of our house, for your enjoyment, with Milo the whippet for scale

M

 

[SteamyTea]

@Omnibuswoman

Nothing to do with this at all, but was wondering what sort of MPG you get from your car, both running around locally, and on a long M4/M5//A30 run.

It is one of the vehicles on my short list.

 

To do with this thread.

I hope you have optimizers on those PV modules, going to be a bit of shading on them, all year round.

Edited March 7, 2023 by SteamyTea

[Moonshine]

20 minutes ago, Omnibuswoman said:

We've called a meeting with Dan, and his office manager/finance person, for later this week to discuss exactly how the costs incurred on this stage compare to the very detailed quote he gave us - the costs are being tracked against the original quote, which was the 'target price' set out in the contract - so that we can see if labour costs are coming in higher than expected.

 

HWMBO said that if the costs being incurred are in line with the quote, then he doesn't favour kicking off about idling about on site.

 

Agree with this, but I thought that it was on daily rates

If its on a fixed price and you have accepted that then idleness is hurting the pocket of the employer.

If dailys then the idleness is hurting your pocket.

[Temp]

I asked my builder why he didn't have any sockets in his site van for a heater or kettle and he told me he didn't want his trades sitting around. He said they can sit in their cars if they are cold. 

 

I learned a lot from him. He also put a lot of effort into ensuring trades never had to go of site to get materials. Every day before closing up he asked everyone what was needed for the next day and personally went to buy it on the way home if necessary. He said if you let trades go and get stuff they will be gone hours on your time.

[Temp]

On 06/03/2023 at 17:19, Omnibuswoman said:

just over 4020 kwh in 14 weeks

 

4020÷14÷5÷12 = 4.8kWH

 

So that sounds like a 3kW fan heater on 12 hours a day.

 

Over a weekend replace it with a 1kW heater. Tell them the old one wasn't working when you visited. 

[Temp]

Duplicate deleted. 

Edited March 7, 2023 by Temp

[Temp]

Duplicate deleted.

Edited March 7, 2023 by Temp

[Omnibuswoman]

2 hours ago, Moonshine said:

 

Agree with this, but I thought that it was on daily rates

If its on a fixed price and you have accepted that then idleness is hurting the pocket of the employer.

If dailys then the idleness is hurting your pocket.

 

We're not on fixed rates - it is a daily rate. But we have a very detailed quote from Dan which breaks down every task by the estimated cost of labour and materials, and we monitor that against the actual charges that are invoiced. So we are able to see if something has come in over or under the estimate, and then can see whether it was materials cost or labour cost that caused that. It's as close as we will get to a fixed price contract.

 

If labour causes an overspend, then we can have that conversation with Dan about idleness.

 

[joe90]

3 minutes ago, Omnibuswoman said:

But we have a very detailed quote from Dan

Being pedantic that is an estimate not a quote, it’s good you are keeping an eye on this and need to take him to task if the estimate over runs.

[Omnibuswoman]

3 hours ago, SteamyTea said:

@Omnibuswoman

Nothing to do with this at all, but was wondering what sort of MPG you get from your car, both running around locally, and on a long M4/M5//A30 run.

It is one of the vehicles on my short list.

 

To do with this thread.

I hope you have optimizers on those PV modules, going to be a bit of shading on them, all year round.

 

I find it quite efficient, and absolutely love driving it. We've the van version so enormous open space in the back for stuff.

 

Around town we only use battery. We get approximately 30 miles on one charge, which costs us about £2.30 when charging on the street via one of our local lamp post sockets (24p per kWh). Plus we get the bonus of being exempt from ULEZ charges.

 

On the motorway it's very efficient for a 2 tonne vehicle - It uses around 2/3 of a tank to get down to our plot, but the tank is quite small and only costs between £40 and £50 to fill it up at current prices. And that is with the back full of crap usually. I definitely would recommend.

 

On the panel issue, I will have another chat with our solar guy as we haven't discussed optimisers. I wasn't anticipating much problem with shading, but will revisit that...

[SteamyTea]

7 hours ago, Omnibuswoman said:

but the tank is quite small and only costs between £40 and £50 to fill it up at current prices.

Little bit less than my old diesel, but currently cheaper to run.

 

7 hours ago, Omnibuswoman said:

On the panel issue, I will have another chat with our solar guy as we haven't discussed optimisers. I wasn't anticipating much problem with shading, but will revisit that

You seem to have a Dormer in the way.  Be quick as the scaffolding is up and the modules in place.

[Dave Jones]

massive mistake not getting a price. however.

 

Turn this around and see if the builder is up for a deal. Tell him you will pay your original estimate in full, in stages against work done. This gives him the opportunity to earn more by working normally instead of day rate and you lose the hassle of checking what your not qualified to check and the hassle of knowing you are being robbed.

 

If he doesnt bite at this then you know 100% your budget is not enough and they will be gone once the cash runs out.

Edited March 8, 2023 by Dave Jones

[Omnibuswoman]

47 minutes ago, Dave Jones said:

massive mistake not getting a price. however.

 

Turn this around and see if the builder is up for a deal. Tell him you will pay your original estimate in full, in stages against work done. This gives him the opportunity to earn more by working normally instead of day rate and you lose the hassle of checking what your not qualified to check and the hassle of knowing you are being robbed.

 

If he doesnt bite at this then you know 100% your budget is not enough and they will be gone once the cash runs out.

 

We were offered fixed price, but at 10-15% more than the estimate so that he wouldn't lose out in the event of unexpected costs etc. It was a difficult decision, but with our finite resources, the cost of things spiralling, and the fall in the value of the investments that we were cashing in to fund the build, we just couldn't afford to find the extra money. 

 

We don't distrust Dan and his intentions - he put a great deal of work into the estimate, and his office manager/finance person is tracking it carefully - we just worry that his guys on site are a bit lazy, and spending too much time wandering around smoking/visiting the workshop. 

 

Unfortunately, for complicated reasons that I won't get into, we have had to call an end to the work once the outside is complete. So they only have renderboard, windows and doors, and rendering left to go before the work stops. So the rest of the build will be direct subcontracting, when funds allow, with me on site supervising. This will bring its own set of challenges, mostly with me having to learn enough to be able to effectively oversee/quality control that work. There's also the whole gender thing to contend with - some men not liking having a woman question them or oversee their work - which brings its own set of complications. 

[ToughButterCup]

1 hour ago, Omnibuswoman said:

.... There's also the whole gender thing to contend with - some men not liking having a woman question them or oversee their work - which brings its own set of complications. 

 

Some? Some? Phhhh.

 

It works 'tother way round too. Try having your evidence based opinion accepted as valid when you're a male Early Years Specialist.