Pipe layout sensible??

[Mattg4321]

1 hour ago, AmKal said:

I'm pulling my hair out on this.  Is this something that's gonna suffice or needs to be changed?  Thank you for your advice

It’s hardly the worst thing that’s wrong there, or the most difficult to change. It’s either very lazy or just plain ignorance though. Alarm bells are ringing for everyone here I think looking at those pictures. 
 

As stressful as it will be for you, I’d be wanting pretty much the whole lot out and start again with competent trades. The DPM seems to be some sort of mish mash of whatever they had lying around. There’s rubble/mess all over the place. The pipework in the floor is a total mess - pipework crossing over each other, uneven spacing, possible kinks. The electrical work is messy at best - dry lining boxes and the wrong clips for the cable (are they being used as strain relief/cord grips in absence of sand in the boxes? The pipework to boiler looks a bit better, but whoever did it obviously doesn’t own a soldering mat ffs. 
 

I’m sure your day has been thoroughly ruined, but on the bright side, there is still time to get it rectified. Personally I think serious questions need to be asked of the builder/plumber/electrician at a minimum. 

[Nickfromwales]

2 hours ago, AmKal said:

I'm pulling my hair out on this.  Is this something that's gonna suffice or needs to be changed?  Thank you for your advice

It won't suffice, just lazy work where they've grabbed the recessed plastic boxes and surface mounted them. The cable entry points with a "fast-fix" box are too big, so there will be gaps around the cables where they enter / exit ( unless these have been carefully drilled out to accept each cable snugly. I'll not hold my breath........)

 

OK, lets begin.

 

We'll start with the cold mains. Assuming that is what the pipe is, where the black pipe changes to white and then goes to the stopcock?

• The pipe should be certified MDPE pipe ( WRAS approved for forming part of the "rising cold main" ) and should be buried under the house and NOT run through the screed. This is a contravention of building / water regs to have it this way with joints buried in the screed layer. Regs state that these joints should all have access / inspection chambers if they form part of the cold mains ( in a nutshell ). To become compliant, in light of where you are right now, the black pipe would need to rise immediately into a boxing in / wall with an access panel to a compliant stopcock, non-return valve ( NRV ) and a drain off cock ( DoC ). That is the minimum requirement for terminating a "rising cold main". Then you can carry that onwards in regular pipework ( push-fit or copper ) as it's no longer the rising cold mains. From the pavement to the stopcock must be MDPE pipe all the way. To offer up some pragmatism, the black pipe 'could' retain the joint, but only if it is under the insulation and subfloor ( subterranean ) continuing then via MDPE pipe, with joints permitted if some become necessary, and then the stopcock can stay where it is currently. The MDPE pipe would need to be visible as it rises out of the floor / screed. The cold main ABSOLUTELY CANNOT STAY AS IT IS eg in the heated screed layer, this is very basic standards of 'good practice', but would also be a potential ( major ) health risk from legionella. This would create a genuine health risk for you and your family if left as is. If your building control officer ( BCO ) doesn't agree, ask for them to be replaced with another representative from their office, or demand a second opinion, and ask for it in writing.

QUOTE:-

Can you get Legionella from mains water?

Given that Legionella occurs naturally in a wide variety of water sources, and proliferates at temperatures between 20°C and 50°C, remaining vigilant about the storage and movement of water in a manmade plumbing system will help to mitigate the inherent risk presented by warm mains water.Legionella control: What to do when mains water gets warm

 

• Type the blue text into google and read up for yourself.
• The stopcock as fitted is non-compliant. The rising cold main needs to comprise of, in this exact order, a) a certified stopcock, b) a double check NRV ( NOT a single check one they had close to hand!! ( you can tell these apart as the double check will have a 8mm or so sized brass nut at the mid section eg so you can service it )), and then a glanded DoC for draining down of the entire house ( potable side ) plumbing system. That's the cold mains dealt with.
• Sadly, I think you won't avoid lifting the UFH pipes / insulation / membrane etc to be able to facilitate this correction. Ultimately not your problem as the builder should be able to do this correctly in his / her sleep ( just seamlessly slipping in a bit of PC for good measure there  ). The plumber should have picked up on this also, particularly if they are GSR'd and G3 certified......   ( ask them to show you evidence that their G3 is still in date ( as GSR'd fitters get a G3 when they qualify, but often it's left to expire )).

 

Now to the cylinder discharge ( D1 / D2 ) and "blow-off" ( PRV ) from the boiler, eg the bits I circled in red.

 

• If you follow the path from the cylinder overflow / discharge ( T&PRV ) , and also the path from the control group  ( CG ), which is the big brass 4 way valve in front of the boiler that the cold mains stopcock rises up to, and see which path the escaping water would have to follow to get out of the 15mm pipe and down to the grey plastic tundish. You'll notice the water would need to go uphill, where the pipe dog-legs at the 2x 90^o bends, which is a categoric no-no. Google the cylinder manufacturers installation guide and see this for yourself. The cylinder would have come with this instruction clearly stated ( with visuals ) in the service and G3 registration and benchmark ( installation guide ) booklet.
• There can be no standing water left in this D1 pipework, and any water in it ( after a discharge event ) is not allowed to remain inside, ergo it absolutely MUST be continuously "falling" to the tundish.
• The pipe sizes need to be up-sized, eg when you combine more than one 15mm discharge pipe to another ( tee'ing together ), eg so the T pieces used should have been 22mm and the pipe to the tundish should have been 22mm connecting to a 22mm inlet x 28mm or 32mm outlet tundish. Completely unfit as it is, sorry.
• If I was doing this job I would, a) have the 15mm boiler PRV pipework completely separate, falling to it's own tundish / trap.
• Then the 15mm CG discharge and the 15mm cylinder T&PRV would combine into one 22mm pipe ( so each of the 15mm pipes go into a 22mm tee NOT a 15mm tee, and then on to their own independent waterless tundish / trap.
• Here it the link for these combination tundish / traps - LINK - which do not need water to seal them, eg so no drafts / stench comes back through them.
• The outputs from each of these 2x tundish / traps get teed together and connected via 32mm or 40mm waste pipe, which then goes into a suitable 110mm x ( 32mm or 40mm ) adaptor and into the grey foul water pipe below.

The gas pipe can stay behind the UFH manifold AFAIK. @PeterW you just being cranky because of all the other shite here, LOL?

 

The builders shoulder-shrug about insulating and fixing the pipework in unheated envelopes is a piss-take. The cost of gas lost to the wasted heat isn't coming out of his pocket, plus, if the pipes freeze and burst, it won't be his house that gets wrecked!! Tell him, no insulation, no final payment. Also tell him that you want to see pictures of these areas when done, BEFORE he closes them off and you have to take his word for it, or you want ( ideally ) to see these things done for yourself. Would be best to get your BCO to reinforce, as I suspect you'll need a strategic visit where you go through these concerns with them FIRST, and then the two of you approach the builder with the summary. Prob best to halt work until this has been facilitated.

 

Please post one more pic of the CG as I can't see that in detail. I would like to be sure that the balanced cold output / feeds have been observed / preserved and that it's been installed correctly. It's the bit of kit directly in front of the boiler.

Also, is the boiler cover OK to come off with that fitted there?

 

Sorry to piss on your chips, but better to know before the screed goes down  . I'd very much like to hear you asked for the insulation to be sorted / fixed / taped better, and the membrane to have been replaced before the pour. Is this to be a liquid or dry screed? Best to get the above mess sorted first eh?  

[Nickfromwales]

2 hours ago, AmKal said:

one under the island and one between the boiler and water tank.  I have queried this, but been told it's fine.

These needed to be ducts, and then would have had continuous lengths of push-fit pipe pulled through retrospectively to convey the water services to / from. You cannot bury potable water joints in the screed.  

[PeterW]

26 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

The gas pipe can stay behind the UFH manifold AFAIK. @PeterW you just being cranky because of all the other shite here, LOL?

Only if it’s Tracpipe and not MDPE.. it’s the D2 elbows / 15mm / uphill stuff that worries me ..!

[Nickfromwales]

1 minute ago, PeterW said:

Only if it’s Tracpipe and not MDPE.. it’s the D2 elbows / 15mm / uphill stuff that worries me ..!

@AmKal, can we also get some close up pics of the gas pipe rising behind the UFH manifold, please?

[Jenki]

I know the OP is getting good advice here so don't want to muddy the water but is this going to be in the screed? I won't sleep if it is.

 

[Nickfromwales]

24 minutes ago, Jenki said:

I know the OP is getting good advice here so don't want to muddy the water but is this going to be in the screed? I won't sleep if it is.

 

Not if we can help it lol.  

You've just made me notice that the copper pipe atop is not protected / taped to stop corrosion. Why the feck has that been put there instead of on the wall?!!?

Needs moving!!!

 

The wheels are starting to fall off here.  

 

11 minutes ago, Nickfromwales said:

but is this going to be in the screed?

In any instance where push-fit pipe needs to go from A > B in a screed, you just use cold forming bends at each end, eg so the 90^o fitting ( grey one we see here, changing the white pipe to copper ) is not required.

 

https://www.monsterplumb.co.uk/hep2o-22mm-cold-forming-bend-fixture-metal-with-passivate-finish-hx75/22gr?gclid=CjwKCAiAuaKfBhBtEiwAht6H72L051k0OKJZa4jwLyATP0QopsjxTwEYZkKCcFNDN3iTajBPwGctyRoCngQQAvD_BwE

 

This means continuous runs of push-fit can go in to the floor without any hidden joints whatsoever.

[saveasteading]

A "plumber" who doesn't know how to avoid burning the wall, isn't really a plumber. I have met several.

Apart from all the above tech points I would worry about the joints. Make sure it is tested.

[AmKal]

Thank you to everyone!  I'm no plumber as you can no doubt tell but I'm picking up snippets v. slowly!  I'm going to meet the builder today to share these worries and ask him to get a different plumber to look at the work and redo it properly.  

 

The yellow pipe is solid, not your typical plastic pipe.  It runs around the back of the tank and pops out by the front door.  Hopefully this will be dug in to the ground and not left in view under the door step!

 

I'm going to remove the ufh from the store room as it's not needed.  Give a little more space for the cold water pipe too.

 

I dont know however how he's going to get the mains from the island (black pipe) in to the store room without going in screed, but if it has to be done, I'll state it must be a single length pipe going in the screed away from the hot water pipes with joints OUT of the screed.

 

I'll also ask him to ensure the copper pipe that's going to end up in the screed is protected from corrosion or redone so it goes against the wall.

 

The comments re the tundish for me are very complicated,.so unsure of how to relay them as no doubt the builder will have no idea.  Ill need to have a word with the plumber directly and literally show these posts!  

 

I'll get BC in too and ask them to check things generally.

 

My worry is that the builder will just throw the towel in.  The build started in April last year and had delays for about 4 months due to issues with neighbours.  The builder's working pretty much on his own so work is taking a long time, but has stuck with it.

 

I understand however that this all must be done safely by a competent plumber, at the v least!

 

I will send further pics and updates later today.  Thank you all.

 

[AmKal]

On 12/02/2023 at 08:42, Conor said:

I don't see padstones under your steels and barely 100mm bearing on that bottom one. Have building control been out recently?

Hi, there is a portal frame, I believe BC have been.

[saveasteading]

2 minutes ago, AmKal said:

My worry is that the builder will just throw the towel in.

A common worry. But is that not better in the long term than a home full of prolems and risks?

What if he leaves? You have a delay.

What if he carries on in the same manner?

 

Firm but diplomatic is the way.

[AmKal]

12 hours ago, Jenki said:

I know the OP is getting good advice here so don't want to muddy the water but is this going to be in the screed? I won't sleep if it is.

 

I said the same thing, but was told it's fine.  I'll ensure the joint from the mains is ABOVE the screed

[AmKal]

1 minute ago, saveasteading said:

A common worry. But is that not better in the long term than a home full of prolems and risks?

What if he leaves? You have a delay.

What if he carries on in the same manner?

 

Firm but diplomatic is the way.

I'm going to meet at 12pm.  With a clear demand to ensure the plumbing work is checked and redone to higher standards.  Taking in to account all the comments above.

 

 

[SimonD]

10 minutes ago, AmKal said:

The comments re the tundish for me are very complicated,.so unsure of how to relay them as no doubt the builder will have no idea.  Ill need to have a word with the plumber directly and literally show these posts!  

 

If you point him to Section 3, page 24 & 25 for diagrams and dimensions of Building Regulations Approved Document G, that should at least cover some of it - the plumber should know this as he should have an Unvented ticket, and so should the boiler installer re PRV if he's gas safe registered (if they're different people) - you could ask to see the tickets thet hold. Download it here:

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/504207/BR_PDF_AD_G_2015_with_2016_amendments.pdf

Edited February 13, 2023 by SimonD

[HughF]

That's tracpipe....

[AmKal]

 

 

So, builder is calling back plumber to add an isolation point from where the main water supply comes out of the ground.

 

Where the pipe then moves to the store room, I have said the grey coloured joint that would have been put in screed is not.  The pipe should have a joint above the screed. 

 

My friends father has seen the boiler and has also mentioned the need for a gate valve.  First on the UFH return and second on the pipe leading to the hot water cylinder after the T.  DOES THIS SOUND RIGHT?

 

3. All pipes will be insulated that go in the small pitched roof void.

 

4. Dry lining boxes to be replaced.

 

5. Cold water mains will be separated further from the UFH  pipes.

 

Ive attached a couple of more pics too.

On 12/02/2023 at 08:42, Conor said:

I don't see padstones under your steels and barely 100mm bearing on that bottom one. Have building control been out recently?

Hi, there is a portal frame, I believe BC have been.

[AmKal]

1 hour ago, HughF said:

That's tracpipe....

I think it is... it's tough and got ridges in

[AmKal]

Just now, AmKal said:

I think it is... it's tough and got ridges in

 

[AmKal]

Just now, AmKal said:

 

 

[HughF]

1 minute ago, AmKal said:

I think it is... it's tough and got ridges in

It is, zooming in I can see the ridges. Although the brass nut and yellow amalgamating tape gave it away.

[AmKal]

[HughF]

F**k me your builder is a messy one isn't he....

[AmKal]

43 minutes ago, HughF said:

F**k me your builder is a messy one isn't he....

Yep, it's been a minefield from start.  I'm in the thick of it now, so just have to continue sadly... unless I get another builder, but then that'll create even more issues!  

 

What's your thoughts on this wiring...

[Conor]

The steel letterbox. How deep is it? Assume it's sitting directly on the concrete floor slab? Is there insulation around / over it? ? Looks like it's sitting above your floor insualtion with UFH pipes going directly over it. If its a 203x203UC then looks like you've 150mm floor insualtion? What's the build up on the RHS of 5he beam? Assume existing house?

 

 

[ProDave]

1 hour ago, AmKal said:

What's your thoughts on this wiring...

 

The "Electrcian" needs to go and read BS7671,  particularly the bit that deals with "Safe Zones"  Most of that wiring is not in a safe zone.

 

I am particularly intrigued by the green / yellow wire hanging down to where I think the island is going where the rising main is.  I wonder what he intends that to do?

 

Sadly the electricians work is down to the standard we have become used to on this job.  We should have expected that having seen snippets of his work already.