Running water and power sockets..

[puntloos]

As per a previous discussion - Hairdryer in Bathroom - I'm .. somewhat in agreement that a power socket near a water source is not the best idea, although to my understanding modern electrical safety systems (like RCDs) will prevent ... most? badness.

 

But that got me thinking- why are kitchens/utilities different than bathrooms? Plenty of high power devices next to running water. Perhaps not as ... runny.. as a shower or a bath but still. 

And in particular, at this moment I have a small shower designed into my utility/bike room

 

 

As you can see currently the only power socket designed is across the room near the bikes (almost, but not quite 3m away from the shower, although I could literally use diagonal placement to stretch it to 3.01m...). Is this current design OK anyway - or will it fail some building requirements? The shed is already somewhat 'power free' and could make it completely socket-free but a few sockets would certainly be helpful..

[ProDave]

The wiring regs don't define a utility or a kitchen, the special location is a "room containing a bath or a shower"  So whatever name you give it, your bike shed is a special location under wiring regs and needs to be treated as a bathroom.  And it's too small to get a socket in there, anywhere.

 

This caused me a headache when doing a conversion where the owner had fitted a shower cubicle in the corner of a bedroom.  That whole room is now a special location.  The room was just big enough to allow a couple of sockets in the opposite corner of the room to the shower cubicle, which were of course not where the owner wanted them, so plugged in there is an extension lead to power the tv sat on a dressing table right next to the shower.

 

Bath or shower rooms I guess assume you are likely to be naked and standing in water so don't want anything touchable from there.  In a kitchen you might have wet hands but you are unlikely to be naked and standing or sitting in water (I could think of one on here that might)

[puntloos]

5 minutes ago, ProDave said:

The wiring regs don't define a utility or a kitchen, the special location is a "room containing a bath or a shower"  So whatever name you give it, your bike shed is a special location under wiring regs and needs to be treated as a bathroom.  And it's too small to get a socket in there, anywhere.

Why is that though, is it the 3m thing? 

 

I could manage 3.168m

 

 

5 minutes ago, ProDave said:

 

This caused me a headache when doing a conversion where the owner had fitted a shower cubicle in the corner of a bedroom.  That whole room is now a special location.  The room was just big enough to allow a couple of sockets in the opposite corner of the room to the shower cubicle, which were of course not where the owner wanted them, so plugged in there is an extension lead to power the tv sat on a dressing table right next to the shower.

 

Super useful stuff. \tx

 

5 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Bath or shower rooms I guess assume you are likely to be naked and standing in water so don't want anything touchable from there.  In a kitchen you might have wet hands but you are unlikely to be naked and standing or sitting in water (I could think of one on here that might)

Clearly you've never seen me cook.

[ProDave]

14 minutes ago, puntloos said:

Why is that though, is it the 3m thing? 

Ask the IET, I suspect it is their estimate of the average length of flex on an appliance plus the reach of a person?

[puntloos]

1 minute ago, ProDave said:

Ask the IET, I suspect it is their estimate of the average length of flex on an appliance plus the reach of a person?

My point being that my utility room is juuuuuust large enough to locate a socket further than 3m away. Would that make it acceptable?

[saveasteading]

34 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Bath or shower rooms I guess assume you are likely to be naked and standing in water so don't want anything touchable from

Correct. I had this clarified. 

Assume naked, standing in a puddle and not too bright ( or careless , to quote last week's special word.)

I can't see any bco allowing any relaxation.

But in a utility or kitchen, no problem. Wet hand onto light switch is low risk...maybe a warning tingle and a spark before the cutout trips.

[joth]

I'd just put an outdoor style tap in there and hookup a hand held shower head to it after BC signoff...

 

[andyscotland]

43 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Bath or shower rooms I guess assume you are likely to be naked and standing in water so don't want anything touchable from there.

 

And indeed potentially in a metal bath which may (depending on plumbing & age of electrical installation) be earthed - unlike the kitchen floor.

[Mike]

In contrast to the UK, in France it's illegal not to have an (earthed) power outlet in a bath/shower room. There are some restrictions outsize Zone 2, but it's much more relaxed that the UK.

[puntloos]

53 minutes ago, Mike said:

In contrast to the UK, in France it's illegal not to have an (earthed) power outlet in a bath/shower room. There are some restrictions outsize Zone 2, but it's much more relaxed that the UK.

Huh? Why would it be required to have a power socket in a bathroom?

[ProDave]

9 hours ago, puntloos said:

Huh? Why would it be required to have a power socket in a bathroom?

It it's like Australia, it's where you find the washing machine and tumble dryer, right next to the shower cubicle.  They manage without killing themselves.

[Kelvin]

It’s why we didn’t put a shower in the utility room as it compromised the layout too much. 

[Adsibob]

@puntloos why do you need a shower in there? Is it for dogs, bikes or humans? If for humans, think about whether showering there will be a pleasurable experience - my own view is that it won’t be. Much rather shower in an actual bathroom.

 

if for dogs or bikes, just fit an external tap on the outside of the building and have a hose with a shower head. Install drainage to catch the water.

[Mike]

16 hours ago, puntloos said:

Huh? Why would it be required to have a power socket in a bathroom?

 

So you can use things like shavers (they don't have a special plug so fit standard sockets), hair dryers, washing machines...

 

Rather than banning sockets from bathrooms, it seems that it's... ...baths that should be banned. Yes, the top cause of bathroom electrocutions in France seems to be using a plugged-in mobile phone in the bath. There are a reports of the same happening in the UK too, it's just that you have to use a longer extension lead.

Edited February 4, 2023 by Mike

[puntloos]

5 hours ago, Mike said:

 

So you can use things like shavers (they don't have a special plug so fit standard sockets), hair dryers, washing machines...

 

Rather than banning sockets from bathrooms, it seems that it's... ...baths that should be banned. Yes, the top cause of bathroom electrocutions in France seems to be using a plugged-in mobile phone in the bath. There are a reports of the same happening in the UK too, it's just that you have to use a longer extension lead.

Who charges a mobile with 230V? 

[puntloos]

12 hours ago, Adsibob said:

@puntloos why do you need a shower in there? Is it for dogs, bikes or humans? If for humans, think about whether showering there will be a pleasurable experience - my own view is that it won’t be. Much rather shower in an actual bathroom.

All 3. But with regards to the human part, I don't have a proper shower downstairs and (currently) no way to get people upstairs, but I have a family member who - hopefully temporarily - can't do stairs.

12 hours ago, Adsibob said:

if for dogs or bikes, just fit an external tap on the outside of the building and have a hose with a shower head. Install drainage to catch the water.

 

I suppose it's one way to sort it. But frankly I don't really need power in the bike rack+shower section, and the powered section is 1m away, so extension cords can work..

[Mike]

2 hours ago, puntloos said:

Who charges a mobile with 230V? 

 

Sadly, people like these: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=electrocuted+in+bath+mobile+site%3AUK

[Blooda]

On 04/02/2023 at 09:31, ProDave said:

It it's like Australia, it's where you find the washing machine and tumble dryer, right next to the shower cubicle.  They manage without killing themselves.

RCD protected etc..  Distance between water and power points | BUILD

 

From when we visited, I seem to remember there was regulations about washing machines you couldn't have them in a kitchen or area preparing or eating food.  Also the room had to have a sink. Archaic rules, so you didn't use water from the open wash copper to cook your food in.  Western Australia, so don't know if it applies all over.

[Mattg4321]

Most other countries manage ok with sockets in bathrooms. As above, people just run leads anyway if they’re that way inclined. What with widespread use of RCD’s, it’s time for the IET to have a rethink imo. 
 

Also, for future reference, the distance required is now 2.5m. Not 3m since it was changed in 18th AMD 2

[puntloos]

On 05/02/2023 at 01:14, Mike said:

 

Sadly, people like these: https://duckduckgo.com/?q=electrocuted+in+bath+mobile+site%3AUK

Well, more specifically, I don't think it's a problem to throw a charging phone into your bath since the voltage going up and down the mobile cable is 5V and max a few amps over USB.

 

Throwing a *charger* into the bath, or perhaps indeed running an extension lead with plugged in charger into your bathroom.. different story. And I *suppose* if your cable is wet and you get the charger itself wet, maaaybe it would run on the outside of the cable.. Still, how old and hardwired is your consumer unit that it doesn't cut out? My damn CU cuts out for no reason all the time (grr)

[puntloos]

2 hours ago, Mattg4321 said:

Most other countries manage ok with sockets in bathrooms. As above, people just run leads anyway if they’re that way inclined. What with widespread use of RCD’s, it’s time for the IET to have a rethink imo. 
 

Also, for future reference, the distance required is now 2.5m. Not 3m since it was changed in 18th AMD 2

That's really useful to know actually, thx.

[joth]

1 hour ago, puntloos said:

Well, more specifically, I don't think it's a problem to throw a charging phone into your bath since the voltage going up and down the mobile cable is 5V and max a few amps over USB.

 

Throwing a *charger* into the bath, or perhaps indeed running an extension lead with plugged in charger into your bathroom.. different story. And I *suppose* if your cable is wet and you get the charger itself wet, maaaybe it would run on the outside of the cable.. Still, how old and hardwired is your consumer unit that it doesn't cut out? My damn CU cuts out for no reason all the time (grr)

USB-C supports charging at 20V (or more?). Still safe enough even if submerged I think (?)

It's criminal there aren't better options for installing permanent usb charger sockets in bathrooms. Toothbrushes, shavers, phones, speakers, vanity mirror lights... Probably even hair tongs could work on it. And have less stupid proprietary chargers as a result 

Edited February 7, 2023 by joth

[Nickfromwales]

On 04/02/2023 at 09:31, ProDave said:

It it's like Australia, it's where you find the washing machine and tumble dryer, right next to the shower cubicle.  They manage without killing themselves.

Largely due to the amount of grog they consume  The beer displaces the water in the human body, so they cannot conduct electricity.

Very wise people, we could learn from them me thinks.

 

Stick that in your 19th Ed  

[Nickfromwales]

7 hours ago, joth said:

USB-C supports charging at 20V (or more?). Still safe enough even if submerged I think (?)

It's criminal there aren't better options for installing permanent usb charger sockets in bathrooms. Toothbrushes, shavers, phones, speakers, vanity mirror lights... Probably even hair tongs could work on it. And have less stupid proprietary chargers as a result 

It's a bloody bathroom! Go in there, drop the kids off at the pool, wash your grotty bits, and then get out of there?

 

Toothbrush charger / docks are now commonplace, phone ( ? FFS ) try charging it before you go into the bathroom to take that "important call" ( defo go on hands free, hygiene first people ! ). Speakers? The amplifier goes inside ceiling mounted speakers, been fitting them for years. Vanity mirror lights? Never needed anything other than a 230v cable behind them ( and then you can also have the shaver socket incorporated into it.

 

The world has gone mad.

 

Doubt we'll see upwards of 1kW through a USB for hair tongs any time soon.....  

[joth]

2 hours ago, Nickfromwales said:

It's a bloody bathroom! Go in there, drop the kids off at the pool, wash your grotty bits, and then get out of there?

 

Toothbrush charger / docks are now commonplace, phone ( ? FFS ) try charging it before you go into the bathroom to take that "important call" ( defo go on hands free, hygiene first people ! ). Speakers? The amplifier goes inside ceiling mounted speakers, been fitting them for years. Vanity mirror lights? Never needed anything other than a 230v cable behind them ( and then you can also have the shaver socket incorporated into it.

 

The world has gone mad.

 

Doubt we'll see upwards of 1kW through a USB for hair tongs any time soon.....  

 

Hahaha. Hair tongs are only about 30W. Not sure how thick your hair is.

 

I tend to agree on phones and speakers/radios. Point there is that people are obviously doing this and killing themselves: it'd seem preferable to make it easy to get low voltage supply into the bathroom than have them bring extension cords in.

Built in toothbrush chargers are the devil's own work. Proprietary charging interface built into the wall, no use if you change brands never mind for guests or hotel use etc.

And that still leaves out my poor old rechargeable razor. It only needs a 1.5V PSU, yet I need a 220V to 110V transformer always on to charge it (per current status quo).

 

And what about this new trend for putting thr bathtub in the bedroom? I'd much rather make it easy to get USB outlet beside the tub than have folks pull a mains lead from 2.5m away across the room. Or are we now saying electrical appliances shouldn't be in the bedroom either?

Edited February 7, 2023 by joth