Insulation only provides short-term reduction in household gas consumption, study of UK housing suggests

[SimonD]

Interesting publication about the effects of retrofit insulation, which, as ever, points towards a mix of interventions as well as behaviour.

 

https://www.cam.ac.uk/research/news/insulation-only-provides-short-term-reduction-in-household-gas-consumption-study-of-uk-housing

[ADLIan]

No real rocket science there! Report needs a different title too - sends the totally wrong message.

[ProDave]

That raises more questions than it answers.

 

Why does consumption rise?  Is it because the insulation is failing?  Or because customer use is changing and it would have risen even if no insulation had been fitted?  Is the "increase" measured in cost or units of gas consumed?

 

It just seems to be clickbait to push the "you must get a heat pump" message.  

[MikeGrahamT21]

As i read this, it was most insulation improvements happen at same time as extensions, so a year down the line your annual quantity of energy has increased, but thats because although you've reduced heat loss, your floor area has increased, which is obvious really.

[Kelvin]

21 minutes ago, MikeGrahamT21 said:

As i read this, it was most insulation improvements happen at same time as extensions, so a year down the line your annual quantity of energy has increased, but thats because although you've reduced heat loss, your floor area has increased, which is obvious really.

Sure but the change is spread over 4 years so it’s not the increase in floor area or certainly not just that. I never read the report  so don’t know if you can assume an increased floor area either for ‘most’ people. 
 

‘Most’ folk have no clue how to efficiently run their heating systems. Moreover most folk seem to run their houses far too warm. That may well have changed of course due to the energy cost increases. My guess is that people don’t change their behaviour after improving insulation and are more likely to open windows in a too hot room than reduce the heat input in that room. I’ve witnessed this with my sister and BiL. They have 4 degrees and two PhDs between them. 

Edited January 3, 2023 by Kelvin

[MikeGrahamT21]

Maybe they took the average 4 years before and after?

[Kelvin]

I would suggest the best thing most folk could do to reduce heating costs is remove their shitty 80s conservatory. 

[Gone West]

3 hours ago, Kelvin said:

Moreover most folk seem to run their houses far too warm.

Is that assumption based solely on your sister and BiL's actions or more comprehensive data. How can you define "too" warm. Depending on age, health factors and individuals comfort there will be a wide range of temperatures that people require to live a comfortable life. 

[Roger440]

5 minutes ago, Gone West said:

Is that assumption based solely on your sister and BiL's actions or more comprehensive data. How can you define "too" warm. Depending on age, health factors and individuals comfort there will be a wide range of temperatures that people require to live a comfortable life. 

 

Indeed. I dont know anyone that runs there heating/house "too warm". I find its just the right temp for them, or in my house for me.

 

What Kelvin really meant, is too warm for "him".

[ProDave]

4 hours ago, Kelvin said:

My guess is that people don’t change their behaviour after improving insulation and are more likely to open windows in a too hot room than reduce the heat input in that room

We used to run a B&B and that had UFH in the bedrooms, which we all know is slow.  We used to keep the thermostats set at 20 degrees.

 

One morning after the guest had left we went to service the room, only to find the thermostat set at 30, the room far too hot, and the window wide open.  I guess they wanted it a bit warmer than 20, turned it up, nothing appeared to happen so they turned it up more.

 

Never under estimate how stupid some people are.

[Radian]

Surely all this shows is that people have a fixed budget for their heating bills but a fluid desire for a warmer house. They will just buy the same amount of gas that they used to and enjoy the greater comfort.

[Kelvin]

42 minutes ago, Gone West said:

Is that assumption based solely on your sister and BiL's actions or more comprehensive data. How can you define "too" warm. Depending on age, health factors and individuals comfort there will be a wide range of temperatures that people require to live a comfortable life. 

Based on the vast majority of houses I’ve been in.
 

Obviously the elderly or people with ill health will need their homes warmer. Fit healthy people could easily live in a house where the temperature is under 21^oC. House temperatures have been steadily increasing for years. I have many friends and family that wear shorts and t-shirts at home in the winter because their houses are so warm albeit that’s changed this year as they’ve reduced the thermostat and wear more clothes at home. 
 

Edited January 3, 2023 by Kelvin

[JohnMo]

29 minutes ago, ProDave said:

thermostat set at 30

You missed the trick, connect the thermostat electrically, but don't connect to an actuator.  They think they are in control, but they aren't really.

 

Read or heard somewhere that in the 70's house temperatures, with central heating used to be controlled in the region of 16-17 on average, last year they were in the low 20's.

 

Been in houses where the temps are in the mid 20's they are just uncomfortable to move about in

[Gone West]

31 minutes ago, ProDave said:

We used to run a B&B and that had UFH in the bedrooms, which we all know is slow.

 

I think the key phrase there is, "which we all know". Did you leave instructions as to the type of heating and how it differs from conventional radiators. If not :-

 

33 minutes ago, ProDave said:

Never under estimate how stupid some people are.

 

I don't think the people were necessarily 'stupid', just not aware.

 

I think the "we all know" is largely limited to members of this type of forum.

[Roger440]

4 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

Based on the vast majority of houses I’ve been in.
 

Obviously the elderly or people with ill health will need their homes warmer. Fit healthy people could easily live in a house where the temperature is under 21^oC. House temperatures have been steadily increasing for years. I have many friends and family that wear shorts and t-shirts at home in the winter because their houses are so warm albeit that’s changed this year as they’ve reduced the thermostat and wear more clothes at home. 
 

 

"Could" easily do so. May not want to. I find 21.5 to be just right in my living room.

 

You also need to factor in the time of year. Peoplec will often want a higher temp in winter than in summer. I found this back when i had a fleet of trains to look after. The complaints were too cold in winter, too hot in summer. The reality was, the temps were always the same. So i made it a twice yearly task to change the target setting. Going from memory, we changed it to 21.5 in winter, 19.5 in summer. Customer complaints largely disappeared. Still the odd, genuine complaint because it was broken of course, but basically solved the issue.  

 

Besides, there can be other benfits to more brief attire depending who you are living with.................................

[Kelvin]

Yes but loads of folk think setting a thermostat to 30^oC makes the room heat up faster. 

[joe90]

As said above, the report implies that insulation does not last which is rubbish. As I and others have said before, you only buy insulation once (as long as you don’t move house). If anyone heats a conservatory they deserve high heating costs, I would never do that, IMO they should be outside the thermal envelope. I agree that some people just don’t get how to run their heating and/or they are far to affluent. An old adage in the outdoor sports world is

 

“there is no such thing as being cold, there is only wearing the wrong clothes”

 

the opposite is true of living with a heating system 🤷‍♂️

[Gone West]

12 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

Based on the vast majority of houses I’ve been in.

So it's subjective.

 

13 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

Fit healthy people could easily live in a house where the temperature is under 21^oC.

If they feel comfortable in a low temperature house that's fine, but there are no regulations about house temperatures.

 

16 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

I have many friends and family that wear shorts and t-shirts at home in the winter

I would love to be able to do that, but at my age I can't keep the house warm enough, although it's a goal I'm aiming for.

[Roger440]

4 minutes ago, Kelvin said:

Based on the vast majority of houses I’ve been in.
 

Obviously the elderly or people with ill health will need their homes warmer. Fit healthy people could easily live in a house where the temperature is under 21^oC. House temperatures have been steadily increasing for years. I have many friends and family that wear shorts and t-shirts at home in the winter because their houses are so warm albeit that’s changed this year as they’ve reduced the thermostat and wear more clothes at home. 
 

 

"Could" easily do so. May not want to. I find 21.5 to be just right in my living room.

 

You also need to factor in the time of year. Peoplec will often want a higher temp in winter than in summer. I found this back when i had a fleet of trains to look after. The complaints were too cold in winter, too hot in summer. The reality was, the temps were always the same. So i made it a twice yearly task to change the target setting. Going from memory, we changed it to 21.5 in winter, 19.5 in summer. Customer complaints largely disappeared. Still the odd, genuine complaint because it was broken of course, but basically solved the issue.  

 

Besides, there can be other benfits to more brief attire depending who you are living with.................................

[Kelvin]

Of course it’s subjective. It’s based on my observation. 

 

I’ve also started to see people I know change their behaviour about leaving lights on in empty rooms in that they’ve stopped doing it. It’s driven by cost. When energy was cheap folk didn’t care about any of this. Now it’s expensive they do. They probably always should have in reality. 
 

I get this attitude from my granny. When it was cold she gave us a candle and when it was really cold she let us light it. 

 

Edited January 3, 2023 by Kelvin

[Spreadsheetman]

7 hours ago, ProDave said:

That raises more questions than it answers.

 

Why does consumption rise?  Is it because the insulation is failing?  Or because customer use is changing and it would have risen even if no insulation had been fitted?  Is the "increase" measured in cost or units of gas consumed?

 

It just seems to be clickbait to push the "you must get a heat pump" message.  

It does doesn’t it.

 

It seems to be saying that people want to be warmer than they can afford to be, so better insulation just means they can then afford to crank the temperature up higher (or build bigger houses for the same energy consumption).

 

Getting a heat pump will work though as increasing the temperature beyond a sanctioned maximum will be so expensive that they can’t afford to do it.

[ProDave]

11 minutes ago, Spreadsheetman said:

Getting a heat pump will work though as increasing the temperature beyond a sanctioned maximum will be so expensive that they can’t afford to do it.

And then tell everyone how useless heat pumps are.

[Adsibob]

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

Never under estimate how stupid some people are.

Indeed. However stupid a person you will find, there will always be one person who is more stupid. E.g.:

I thought Farage was stupid. Then came Cameron, who made Farage look clever.

so I thought Cameron was stupid, but Johnson was even stupider. What next?

[Kelvin]

3 minutes ago, Adsibob said:

Indeed. However stupid a person you will find, there will always be one person who is more stupid. E.g.:

I thought Farage was stupid. Then came Cameron, who made Farage look clever.

so I thought Cameron was stupid, but Johnson was even stupider. What next?

Liz Truss

Edited January 3, 2023 by Kelvin

[Adsibob]

But more seriously, I think the problem identified by this badly reported study, is that you can’t just change one thing and expect it will fix all people’s heat loss issues. Of course insulation is important, but it won’t fix everything unless it is accompanied by changes in behaviour. Smart thermostats, extensive zoning of heating circuits and MVHR will all make environmentally friendly behaviour easier to happen naturally. E.g. rooms won’t get stuffy if the heating system is properly zoned with enough smart thermostats installed and MVHR keeping the air fresh. So there is less scope for stupid behaviour, like opening the windows in the middle of winter.