Cold Utility Room - Integrated Garage

[soapstar]

Hey Folks,

 

Been in our new build for little over a year now, very pleased with everything however given we are coming into the colder months again I am trying to understand why our utility room get so cold. I thought I would see if any of you knowledgeable folk can help me to improve the situation or at least explain what could be adding to the problem.

 

The utility room is between the kitchen and double garage, serviced by two doors (fire door on garage side and normal internal door to kitchen). Garage is of timber frame construction as with the rest of the house, and complete with two roller doors. There is quite a large space above the garage accessed via hatch. This loft space expands not only above the garage but also over the utility room - this is where my main concerns are, should this be like this and would it contribute to heat loss in the utility room?

 

The garage will always be colder than the rest of the house, I understand this. All drafts have been taken care of as much as possible with draught excluders on roller doors (these were letting in quite a draught!) and fire door adequately draught proofed.  The wall between the garage and utility is also an area I believe might be letting cold seep into the utility, although this was all adequately insulated as with the rest of the house.

 

We are experiencing temperatures in the utility room 3-4 degrees lower than in the Kitchen at the moment. External outside door from utility all seems in order with no draughts etc.

 

I have attached a quick illustration of the layout to help understand the situation better. Any help or suggestions would be appreciated. Thank you.

[Radian]

Are you saying the Insulation in the wall between utility & garage is to the same standard as all other outside walls? And the ceiling? This should too be treated like the rest of the house between ceiling and roof. Other than that, what ventilation system serves the utility? I got a cold ceiling in mine due to extractor vent ductwork serving the utility and downstairs loo.

[j_s]

Check the utility room loft is insulated. I am currently fixing exactly the same setup but have some very poor workmanship to remedy. Utility room is much colder than the rest of the house. Originally the ceiling had no insulation at all. I sorted that but only made a little improvement. On further inspection I found huge holes in the inner blockwork. These are now fixed and now about to start getting it all airtight. 

 

Does the garage to utility door have seals? Is the door a typical internal door? 

 

As Radian said, how well is the wall separating the utilty from garage insulated? 

[soapstar]

15 hours ago, Radian said:

Are you saying the Insulation in the wall between utility & garage is to the same standard as all other outside walls? And the ceiling? This should too be treated like the rest of the house between ceiling and roof. Other than that, what ventilation system serves the utility? I got a cold ceiling in mine due to extractor vent ductwork serving the utility and downstairs loo.

From what I am aware the wall between the utility and garage is to the same standard as say the wall between the utility and kitchen, the only difference being there is added fire proofing plasterboard.

 

we have an extractor fan in the utility - I have temporarily covered the vent up to see if there is any improvements. Still seems to be much and such the same.

 

8 hours ago, j_s said:

Check the utility room loft is insulated. I am currently fixing exactly the same setup but have some very poor workmanship to remedy. Utility room is much colder than the rest of the house. Originally the ceiling had no insulation at all. I sorted that but only made a little improvement. On further inspection I found huge holes in the inner blockwork. These are now fixed and now about to start getting it all airtight. 

 

Does the garage to utility door have seals? Is the door a typical internal door? 

 

As Radian said, how well is the wall separating the utilty from garage insulated? 

That’s interesting you have the same issue. I have inspected the roof space above the utility and there is plenty rolls of insulation above both the utility and garage.

 

The door between the garage and utility does indeed have seals, although I further added a brush excluder to the bottom and this was letting in a draught. Around the frame of the door seems pretty tight with no air coming through.

 

Would partitioning the loft above the utility help at all? My thinking being this would contain the heat above the utility and not allow it to spread across above the garage…

 

I have attached an image pointing towards the loft space with sits above the utility room. Regarding partitioning this off it wouldn’t be hard as the framing is all there.

[Dave Jones]

you could stick some 50/75/100mm celotex to the garage wall. 20 min job to give you a rapid improvement for utility. Can use megastick in a foam gun. 

 

Check the door between utility/garage is properly draft proofed (should have intumescent strip being a fire door).

Edited October 27, 2022 by Dave Jones

[Radian]

So those room-in-roof attic trusses in the foreground are above the garage? That'd be an easy way to get more living space! It's weird how they put up studwork at the transition to standard roof trusses like this was going to be a room. How did you access this loft to take the photo?

 

But yes, boost the insulation over  the utility part and complete the partition to keep it snug.

[joth]

1 hour ago, Dave Jones said:

you could stick some 50/75/100mm celotex to the garage wall.

And to the utility/garage door. I expect it's a FD30 but they rarely have a good (or even quoted) U value. 

 

[Ferdinand]

On 27/10/2022 at 07:34, soapstar said:

we have an extractor fan in the utility - I have temporarily covered the vent up to see if there is any improvements. Still seems to be much and such the same.

 

Does the fan have a backdraft shutter in it? If not you have a hole in your wall, Dear Soapstar, Dear Soapstar ... 😉.

 

Fix is a replacement fan with a backdrafts shutter (from about £30), or even an HR fan - which I think would be justified in a utility.

 

F

[soapstar]

@Radian
Thanks everyone for the input much appreciated. To clarify for everyone’s sake the picture has been taken standing in the garage part of the loft, the trusses you see are above the utility. The garage was designed differently in order to allow us to convert the space later as its massive! The hatch is in the garage space.

 

@Dave Jones thanks, I assume you mean the wall downstairs separating the garage and utility? I did consider this however given the garage is finished and plaster boarded it wouldn’t look great  unless you can get something which looks like a wall finish - not too fussy to be honest. Regarding the door yes this is certainly draught proof with seal around frame.

 

@Ferdinand This is something I would have to look into regarding the fan. At the moment I took this out the equation by taping up the vent!  

So would the consensus be to partition off the area above the utility room completely? I would also consider adding insulation such as celotex to the garage wall but as I say would be a little odd and the wife might not be happy

 

 

[Gus Potter]

On 26/10/2022 at 15:37, soapstar said:

I am trying to understand why our utility room get so cold.

Have you timber suspended floors? If so have you popped off any plinths in the utility room and looked behind the appliances.

 

You may find unsealed service penetrations allowing the cold air in from the solum.

 

Utility rooms and kitchens are always tricky on new builds. While the rest or the floor insulation may have had a cursory quality control glance, quite often the plumbers / sparks mess about with the floor insulation when there is a "miss interpretation" of the drawings. It nearly never gets put back properly.

 

I know someone who knows someone who is a site manager for one of the big house builders. They get a heads up from BC on which houses are to be air tested!

 

For all... if you are going to buy a new build ask at the show home loudly if the one you want to buy was air tested.. just for a laugh you understand..

 

 

 

 

[Radian]

1 hour ago, Gus Potter said:

have you popped off any plinths in the utility room and looked behind the appliances.

 

Funny you should mention that. I've been trying to address a cold utiility room in my own house and concluded (from thermal imaging) it was ducting crossing the ceiling without a backdraft preventer.

 

However, there can be more than one cause - and today I was feeding a cable for a Current Transformer through the wall behind the utility sink unit, I'd drilled through from the back of the meter box on the outside wall and used a tiny inspection camera on a long goose neck to look inside to see where I'd come through. As I moved the camera I spotted a large earth wire also coming through a sizeable hole in the wall, and exiting behind the plywood back to the cabinet under the worktop. The earth cable was there on its way to emerge alongside the 15mm copper pipe it was clamped to under the sink. So the hole in the inner leaf was unsealed and allowing a draft from the cavity unfettered access to the space behind the cabinets and inside through the penetrations for the copper pipes. The entire area is also open to the space the washing machine sits within so air has an easy way past and into the room.

 

The more I looked, the more opportunities I could see for outside air to come straight in: both electricity meter and gas meter boxes were riddled with holes leading into the cavity. The cavity had holes leading into the gap behind the utility room cabinets. The cabinets had gaps around the plinths and big holes for plumbing. No wonder this room was so cold in the winter. The wall also faces NE which doesn't help.

 

Now I'm wondering what's the best way to fill a fist sized hole around where the meter tails go through the rear of the meter box? (it looks like sparky took a hammer to the box to make the hole). The issue I understand with using PU foam around PVC cables is that while there's no adverse chemical reaction, the extra thermal insulation will de-rate the cables by a finite amount. Could this be significant? I wouldn't think so but it just feels wrong to squirt foam all over the big tails.

[Marvin]

9 minutes ago, Radian said:

 

Funny you should mention that. I've been trying to address a cold utiility room in my own house and concluded (from thermal imaging) it was ducting crossing the ceiling without a backdraft preventer.

 

However, there can be more than one cause - and today I was feeding a cable for a Current Transformer through the wall behind the utility sink unit, I'd drilled through from the back of the meter box on the outside wall and used a tiny inspection camera on a long goose neck to look inside to see where I'd come through. As I moved the camera I spotted a large earth wire also coming through a sizeable hole in the wall, and exiting behind the plywood back to the cabinet under the worktop. The earth cable was there on its way to emerge alongside the 15mm copper pipe it was clamped to under the sink. So the hole in the inner leaf was unsealed and allowing a draft from the cavity unfettered access to the space behind the cabinets and inside through the penetrations for the copper pipes. The entire area is also open to the space the washing machine sits within so air has an easy way past and into the room.

 

The more I looked, the more opportunities I could see for outside air to come straight in: both electricity meter and gas meter boxes were riddled with holes leading into the cavity. The cavity had holes leading into the gap behind the utility room cabinets. The cabinets had gaps around the plinths and big holes for plumbing. No wonder this room was so cold in the winter. The wall also faces NE which doesn't help.

 

Now I'm wondering what's the best way to fill a fist sized hole around where the meter tails go through the rear of the meter box? (it looks like sparky took a hammer to the box to make the hole). The issue I understand with using PU foam around PVC cables is that while there's no adverse chemical reaction, the extra thermal insulation will de-rate the cables by a finite amount. Could this be significant? I wouldn't think so but it just feels wrong to squirt foam all over the big tails.

Silicone?

[Gus Potter]

5 minutes ago, Radian said:

Funny you should mention that.

It's because I'm having discussion with BC about why they need a pile of trickle ventilation installed in an old Victorian house when I'm doing an internal slapping in a wall to make an open plan kitchen.

 

My argument is.. the place is freezing and draughty already.. we don't want to make it worse.

 

As loads of folk have said on BH.. and lot's know much more about it than I do.. it only takes a small hole to reduce air tightness.

 

If that hole is next to a solum vent  on an east facing elevation say then it's akin to leaving a window open on a night latch?

 

Yes I'm being dramatic but I think I have a point?

 

 

[Gus Potter]

14 minutes ago, Radian said:

The issue I understand with using PU foam around PVC cables

Will defer but @Carrerahill will know / have the answer.

Edited October 28, 2022 by Gus Potter

[Radian]

10 minutes ago, Marvin said:

Silicone?

 

...Fist sized hole. I guess I could attempt a repair using sheet material cut to fit around the cables but it's a compound shape with both the bottom and back of the box having been broken away. I think its glass fibre or some other reinforced plastic so glass mat and resin might be one approach. But so much easier and tempting to spray squirty foam in there though!

[Gus Potter]

29 minutes ago, Radian said:

the extra thermal insulation will de-rate the cables by a finite amount.

Yes technically but I suspect that @Carrerahill will set your mind at rest. Don't want to say more as I probably know enough to be dangerous!

 

 

[soapstar]

I have now spent the weekend partitioning off that area above the utility using thermal wrap, on both the roof trusses and across the partition to fully enclose the area - absolute horrible job  

 

This has made zero difference to the temperature in the utility room 😄 

 

The last thing to try as mentioned is to improve the thermal insulation on the wall between the utility and garage. I fitted one of those insulated door curtains to the door and I do believe this made a difference all be it small (this was before doing the loft insulation).

 

Now i need to figure out the best way to achieve this without too much upheaval - Ideally I want to keep the plasterboard intact on the garage side (this will be fire proof anyway). The frame around the door is approx 20mm out from the wall, what is the chances of applying anything which will make a difference which will fit flush with the door frame?

 

I came across 25mm (5mm not a huge deal) insulated boards from b&q here   https://www.diy.com/departments/jablite-polystyrene-insulation-board-l-2-4m-w-1-2m-t-50mm/26818_BQ.prd

 

Only issue I would see is fixing these to the existing plasterboard, I really don't want to completely ruin the plasterboard with any sealant as perhaps one day this garage will be converted to a room.

 

Any suggestions would be hugely appreciated...

[SteamyTea]

Get one of these and start investigating temperatures of walls, doors, whatnots and so forth.

 

[soapstar]

13 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

Get one of these and start investigating temperatures of walls, doors, whatnots and so forth.

 

 

@SteamyTea you read my mind...currently considering one of these thermal imaging cameras https://www.amazon.co.uk/Thermal-Imaging-Resolution-Lightning-Connector/dp/B0728C7KND/ref=sr_1_3_sspa?crid=AKPJZJD9RA40&keywords=thermal+imaging+camera&qid=1667207290&qu=eyJxc2MiOiI2LjAxIiwicXNhIjoiNS42NiIsInFzcCI6IjQuODkifQ%3D%3D&sprefix=thermal+imaging+camera%2Caps%2C152&sr=8-3-spons&psc=1

 

Although what you have linked will do the job I assume...any experience with either?

 

Plus im not sure if I really cant justify the price to the wife of the thermal imaging camera, the cost of it will pay our electric bill for one day 

 

Edited October 31, 2022 by soapstar

[markc]

The thermometers are useful but no substitute for thermal imaging

[Carrerahill]

On 28/10/2022 at 22:09, Radian said:

The issue I understand with using PU foam around PVC cables is that while there's no adverse chemical reaction, the extra thermal insulation will de-rate the cables by a finite amount. Could this be significant? I wouldn't think so but it just feels wrong to squirt foam all over the big tails.

Fire sealing around cables is very common, there are different versions but the most common, is fire rated expanding foam. Yes, it will de-rate the cable locally and yes, it could cause problems, however, the chances are, that realistically it wont. Having recently bought some standard expanding foam, I can also state, that according to the can, it can be used on PVC cables. The old plasticiser leaching issues is pretty much a thing of the past unless working with old materials.

 

Give me an example of a couple of the cables you are talking about and I will let you know. Cable type, cross section, MCB/RCBO rating and connected load or typical loads.

 

If it was me, I would put in pieces of 25mm uPVC conduit, foam that in, then run cable(s) though the conduit(s) - you can then use a cable sealing silicone at each end, that means it is also easier to change things around in the future without digging through the foam. 

Edited October 31, 2022 by Carrerahill

[soapstar]

Finally got a laser temperature gun to do a full sweep of the utility and it has opened my eyes to other areas I didn't suspect previously!

 

For one the wall which divides the utility and garage is no colder/warmer than the wall dividing the utility and kitchen (readings taken from inside utility room) - I really suspected the inside garage wall to be far colder...

 

The door between the garage and utility is marginally colder - nothing excessive.

 

Our back external door however is surprisingly cold, approximated 3 degrees colder than the thermostat reading. It would even drop very low towards the bottom of the door and floor, however there is no obvious draughts, the door seems very draught proof (have tested this previously). I have noticed external PVC doors are very cold to the touch.

 

Also another point of concern is the waste water pipe under the sink leading outside, clearly the void which houses the pipe between the utility and outside has not be re-instated as you can see right through to the brickwork (approximately 2 in diameter hole) - Will attempt to seal this with expansion foam around the waste pipe. The readings here are approx. 1-2 degrees lower than room.

 

So it looks like my attention is now diverted to the external utility door, it has a half height window which has no blind so perhaps this might be worth looking into or even a full thermal door curtain and see if this helps...

 

 

I can foresee this laser temp gun giving me hours of fun around the house  

[saveasteading]

Interesting. What machine, and cost?

Can you use it at distance eg to see the heat from the whole house?

[soapstar]

On 02/11/2022 at 14:13, saveasteading said:

Interesting. What machine, and cost?

Can you use it at distance eg to see the heat from the whole house?

No I believe these are only for close proximity work indoors. I think for outdoors you would ideally be looking at getting a thermal imaging camera. Although price wise these can start from £200 and rising (quickly!)

[j_s]

Any luck with the other areas you were fixing?