Infrared heating

[Joe-90]

Have been researching alternatives sources of heating our self-build which is off grid for natural gas. We started looking at air sources heat pumps and asked a closed family member who sells and installs air source heat pumps to housing associations and he said no I would not sell one to my worst enemy you will hate me if I do and stated why.

Hes direct us towards LPG gas that can operate using a mix of hydrogen and LPG gas said it’s the future for gas heating once it’s approved as worcester bosch are trailing. He also pointed us towards infrared heating panels he’s carried out a few installs that run off solar and works well in Sip homes and passive builds. Has anyone had experience of this heating in their self build and would like to share

[jack]

7 minutes ago, Joe-90 said:

Have been researching alternatives sources of heating our self-build which is off grid for natural gas. We started looking at air sources heat pumps and asked a closed family member who sells and installs air source heat pumps to housing associations and he said no I would not sell one to my worst enemy you will hate me if I do and stated why.

Hes direct us towards LPG gas that can operate using a mix of hydrogen and LPG gas said it’s the future for gas heating once it’s approved as worcester bosch are trailing. He also pointed us towards infrared heating panels he’s carried out a few installs that run off solar and works well in Sip homes and passive builds. Has anyone had experience of this heating in their self build and would like to share

 

I barely know where to start with this.

 

What did he say was wrong with heat pumps (ASHPs as we tend to call them)? Many BuildHub members have ASHPs and are very happy with them, myself included.

 

It's interesting that he sells and installs ASHPs for housing associations - are these retrofits and/or poorly built/insulated housing by any chance? Or maybe he or the company he's involved with don't actually know what they're doing and are undersizing what they sell/install for their customers. I can't think of any other reason someone would be so anti ASHP.

 

As discussed repeatedly on BuildHub, hydrogen is unlikely to have a future in supplementing gas for boilers:

 

 

 

As for infrared heating panels, they have their place, but primary heating for an entire home probably isn't it. That he's suggesting solar can be relied upon for providing significant energy during the heating period anywhere in Scotland is concerning. Solar panels won't output much in the depths of winter in Scotland, even on the best of days.

Sorry to be so negative about your family member, but I'm really struggling to see how any of the advice he's given makes any sense.

 

[joe90]

+1 to the above, I have an ASHP and very happy with it.

[JohnMo]

Background, I have a gas boiler.  But the assertion that heat pump don't work and he wouldn't sell to his worst enemy, is more a statement of his skill set, or lack of.

 

A correctly designed, installed and commissioned heat pump will work and shouldn't cost any more to run than a gas boiler.  The key is correctly designed, installed and commissioning.

 

Solar PV and thermal, can work great in the shoulder months, but they cannot deliver a heating system.  Example I live in NE Scotland and have 3.1kW of PV.  The other day it was generating 3.01 kW at around midday, today it was generating 0.1kW at the same time, as it was very heavy cloud and pouring with rain.  Generation is winter is about a 10th of that.

 

IR rads work great in a single direction, so they warm your body that is exposed to the heater.  If your back is away from the heater they will remain cold.  They are 100% efficient, but that's not good compared to a well installed heat pump which could be 400% in the same weather.

 

If I had a shed used as an office for a hour or so a day, IR would be fine.

 

LPG, not convinced with your argument.

[Marvin]

Hi @Joe-90

 

A diplomatic answer further up from@jack

 

What a mess we are in!

 

The whole "how best to heat my property" relies on so many factors and 1 size does NOT fit all. 

 

We have no mains gas and had an LPG boiler. We replaced it with an ASHP and prefer the ASHP set up.

 

However. We completed AIM and APE on our refurbishment making the property suitable for a small ASHP.

 

AIM is Airtightness, Insulation and, Mechanical ventilation.

 

APE is ASHP, PV and EV.

 

Finally, and this is the most important bit IMHO, before we started out we completed thermal loss calculations and the property design and heating installations were completed using this info so we had a good idea what would work. ( Including info on the local climate and solar gain)

 

So an ASHP system may not work for you but it also may.

 

Good luck

 

M

 

[Kelvin]

If it’s a new self-build with good insulation and air tightness then an ASHP is the best option. It won’t need a lot of heat input to keep the house warm. I used infrared panels in a workshop but had to fit a one on each wall to try and create a bit of heat around me. 
 

You need a second opinion 

[PeterW]

1 hour ago, Joe-90 said:

asked a closed family member who sells and installs air source heat pumps to housing associations and he said no I would not sell one to my worst enemy you will hate me if I do and stated why.

Can you tell us what he stated and also his qualifications or background ..? 
 

 

1 hour ago, Joe-90 said:

Hes direct us towards LPG gas that can operate using a mix of hydrogen and LPG gas said it’s the future for gas heating once it’s approved as worcester bosch are trailing.

highly unlikely (and it’s actually a natural gas / hydrogen blend in the tests, not LPG) and WB spend millions trialling lots of things. They trialled CHP for a while and that went nowhere too. 
 

1 hour ago, jack said:

Or maybe he or the company he's involved with don't actually know what they're doing

couldn’t agree more … 

[kommando]

Radiant heating has its place, in a factory with a scattered workforce it's perfect as you can direct the heat only where it's needed. But the fabric of the building stays cold away from the radiant heated areas.

[ReedRichards]

Radiant heating, if the radiation is not focused,  follows an inverse square law with distance so if you want it to heat you, you need to be close to the heater.  Otherwise it mostly heats whatever solid objects it hits and these heat they air so the room warms up.  But it's no more efficient than any other form of direct electrical heating, you get 1 kWh of heat per kWh of electricity.  Electricity is expensive; are you sure this "closed family member" has your best interests at heart? 

[joe90]

I have a radiant heater above my bench in the workshop pointed at me (in the winter).

[SteamyTea]

1 hour ago, ReedRichards said:

Radiant heating, if the radiation is not focused,  follows an inverse square law with distance so if you want it to heat you, you need to be close to the heater.

Yes, been telling people this for decades.  Few listen

 

@Joe-90

Get a proper heat loss calculation done, then see what your options really are.

 

 

General point, who thinks far infra-red heating will enter the conversation here?

 

 

[MikeSharp01]

Just now, SteamyTea said:

far infra-red

12.5 billion years ago in a universe not far from here......

[SteamyTea]

1 minute ago, MikeSharp01 said:

12.5 billion years ago in a universe not far from here......

[Temp]

We opted for oil in 2007. Hasn't been too bad choice so far despite recent hikes. 

 

If building again I'd go for much better insulation and an ASHP.   The ASHP would have to be one that's well supported in the UK .

[kommando]

I too use oil, with a 15th century property the insulation required for class C would be just too ugly and costly.

 

So as I have the room I have extra storage so I can pick and chose when to buy within reason, Aug Sept is always a good time unless the base Brent crude price is high like it is now. Plus I can trade in Brent futures within my SIPP, so I bought oil during the covid slump and then sold at $90 and banked the profit. This profit will pay for the next 3 years supply at the current 95p per L.

 

The burner on the oil boiler is HVO ready so ASHP is not required for CO2 reduction.

[SteamyTea]

33 minutes ago, kommando said:

oil boiler is HVO ready

So you have fallen for the dodgy carbon accounting methods used for all biofuels.

Oh dear, there is little hope left.

[Joe-90]

On 26/07/2022 at 18:04, jack said:

 

I barely know where to start with this.

 

What did he say was wrong with heat pumps (ASHPs as we tend to call them)? Many BuildHub members have ASHPs and are very happy with them, myself included.

 

It's interesting that he sells and installs ASHPs for housing associations - are these retrofits and/or poorly built/insulated housing by any chance? Or maybe he or the company he's involved with don't actually know what they're doing and are undersizing what they sell/install for their customers. I can't think of any other reason someone would be so anti ASHP.

 

As discussed repeatedly on BuildHub, hydrogen is unlikely to have a future in supplementing gas for boilers:

 

 

 

As for infrared heating panels, they have their place, but primary heating for an entire home probably isn't it. That he's suggesting solar can be relied upon for providing significant energy during the heating period anywhere in Scotland is concerning. Solar panels won't output much in the depths of winter in Scotland, even on the best of days.

Sorry to be so negative about your family member, but I'm really struggling to see how any of the advice he's given makes any sense.

 

 

On 26/07/2022 at 18:04, jack said:

 

I barely know where to start with this.

 

What did he say was wrong with heat pumps (ASHPs as we tend to call them)? Many BuildHub members have ASHPs and are very happy with them, myself included.

 

It's interesting that he sells and installs ASHPs for housing associations - are these retrofits and/or poorly built/insulated housing by any chance? Or maybe he or the company he's involved with don't actually know what they're doing and are undersizing what they sell/install for their customers. I can't think of any other reason someone would be so anti ASHP.

 

As discussed repeatedly on BuildHub, hydrogen is unlikely to have a future in supplementing gas for boilers:

 

 

 

As for infrared heating panels, they have their place, but primary heating for an entire home probably isn't it. That he's suggesting solar can be relied upon for providing significant energy during the heating period anywhere in Scotland is concerning. Solar panels won't output much in the depths of winter in Scotland, even on the best of days.

Sorry to be so negative about your family member, but I'm really struggling to see how any of the advice he's given makes any sense.

 

 

On 26/07/2022 at 18:04, jack said:

 

I barely know where to start with this.

 

What did he say was wrong with heat pumps (ASHPs as we tend to call them)? Many BuildHub members have ASHPs and are very happy with them, myself included.

 

It's interesting that he sells and installs ASHPs for housing associations - are these retrofits and/or poorly built/insulated housing by any chance? Or maybe he or the company he's involved with don't actually know what they're doing and are undersizing what they sell/install for their customers. I can't think of any other reason someone would be so anti ASHP.

 

As discussed repeatedly on BuildHub, hydrogen is unlikely to have a future in supplementing gas for boilers:

 

 

 

As for infrared heating panels, they have their place, but primary heating for an entire home probably isn't it. That he's suggesting solar can be relied upon for providing significant energy during the heating period anywhere in Scotland is concerning. Solar panels won't output much in the depths of winter in Scotland, even on the best of days.

Sorry to be so negative about your family member, but I'm really struggling to see how any of the advice he's given makes any sense.

 

Hi Jack

thanks for the interesting reply nothing negative about it at all, the family member who installs heat pumps by the size of business which is not just hear pumps but also includes commercial FM , house building and installs and maintenance of commercial fridge and freezers to supermarkets. Not sure of the property types for housing associations but he’s does install for a few national house builders .

On infrared heat panels running on solar power don’t think you could run 100% on them but with good battery storage some people are getting over 60% on solar during winter but does drop to 20% on really bad days. Have meet a few guys on the Shetland islands running their house and EV on solar 100% in the summer and down to 20% in the winter but they have invested heavily in the solar collection and storage. 

[Kelvin]

Yes but what is his specific issue with them? 

[SteamyTea]

2 hours ago, Joe-90 said:

Have meet a few guys on the Shetland islands running their house and EV on solar 100% in the summer and down to 20% in the winter but they have invested heavily in the solar collection and storage. 

How many miles a day do they travel, 2?

[jack]

14 hours ago, Joe-90 said:

thanks for the interesting reply nothing negative about it at all, the family member who installs heat pumps by the size of business which is not just hear pumps but also includes commercial FM , house building and installs and maintenance of commercial fridge and freezers to supermarkets. Not sure of the property types for housing associations but he’s does install for a few national house builders .

 

Those national house builders who are renowned for poor workmanship and corner-cutting? Perhaps not surprising if they aren't getting good results. Hopefully you plan to build and insulate better than these builders. 

 

I think the main point people are making is that nothing he says seems to make sense. He's flat out wrong on the hydrogen boiler theory, and his comments about ASHPs are completely at odds with the experiences of most BuildHub members.

 

14 hours ago, Joe-90 said:

On infrared heat panels running on solar power don’t think you could run 100% on them but with good battery storage some people are getting over 60% on solar during winter but does drop to 20% on really bad days. Have meet a few guys on the Shetland islands running their house and EV on solar 100% in the summer and down to 20% in the winter but they have invested heavily in the solar collection and storage. 

 

These numbers don't add up unless they're running massive arrays. 

 

To give you a concrete numerical example, I live in the south of England and have 8.5 kW of PV on the roof. I average maybe 150 kWh/month in December and January. That's 5 kWh/day, although the median is lower than that. Put another way, that's 5 hours of a 1 kW electric heater. I'm pretty sure any dwelling in Scotland is going to need a huge amount more energy than that to remain comfortable through winter.

 

As an example of how bad things can get, here's December 2021:

 

Output rises above 4 kWh/day only a handful of times, and is regularly below 2 kWh/day.

 

As another comparison, my electric car has a 38 kWh battery (that's actually on the small side - Teslas have between 50 kWh and 100 kWh batteries). Assuming 100% efficiency, my panels could charge my car 3-4 times a month in winter, assuming I don't use the energy for anything else. To achieve even these theoretical numbers, I'd need a battery system connected to the PV array, because the array itself rarely outputs enough power in winter to charge a car (car chargers have a minimum charge power of something like 1.2 kW, so if you can't get that from the array or a connected battery, the difference will need to be made up from the grid).

 

And that's based on an 8.5 kW array in the south of England. The same array will do considerably worse in Scotland.

 

You really need to do the numbers based on heating demand calculations for your proposed property. 

Edited to add: I forgot to include this link, which you might find interesting: http://euanmearns.com/solar-pv-potential-in-scotland/

[ToughButterCup]

14 hours ago, Joe-90 said:

...

the family member who installs heat pumps by the size of business which is not just hear pumps but also includes commercial FM , house building and installs and maintenance of commercial fridge and freezers to supermarkets.

...

 

A slight - but maybe helpful - aside....

Whenever during the build process  relatives are involved, a red light flashes for me. It does so because of the inappropriate weight that is often given to their contributions.

 

And that process works both ways : they try to please the other family member and vice versa.  In doing so objectivity is the loser.

Sometimes difficult messages have to be given and received. With relatives, thats problematic because punches tend to be pulled.

I'm not arguing that relatives should not be consulted - I'm saying that you seem already to be involved in a process where if you decide not to work with your family member then it will be difficult to manage the family dynamics. Especially if your choice leads to a 'faulty' installation.

 

I do not envy you. I made that error. And it hurts. Still.

[Jilly]

If you get the insulation right, it won't matter terribly what you use as it should be cheap to run. I swung between ASHP and LPG too and in the end decided on LPG on up front costs for the time being. It's working out OK so far. It's using very little for summer hot water and we have a lot of solar gain, so the shoulder months have been just right with no heating at all. It will use more in winter obviously. 

[Joe-90]

On 28/07/2022 at 10:46, Jilly said:

If you get the insulation right, it won't matter terribly what you use as it should be cheap to run. I swung between ASHP and LPG too and in the end decided on LPG on up front costs for the time being. It's working out OK so far. It's using very little for summer hot water and we have a lot of solar gain, so the shoulder months have been just right with no heating at all. It will use more in winter obviously. 

Hi Jilly, after researching the last few days we have decided on LPG after a chat with Worcester Bosch very helpful team who had taken us through all the options including ASHP and LPG. Flemings are producing our kit with the upgraded installation under floor heating to a concrete floor finish. The second floor loft space of the house has a large single room which we going to use infrared heating panels the house faces south with 4 large floor to ceiling sliding doors to maximise the solar gain. Like you I think the upfront cost has pushed us towards LPG. 
 

[PeterW]

28 minutes ago, Joe-90 said:

decided on LPG after a chat with Worcester Bosch very helpful team who had taken us through all the options including ASHP and LPG

Asking a boiler manufacturer their opinion on heating is akin to asking an alcoholic about his favourite drink …. Of course they said LPG, and didn’t bother advising that increasing your cavity width by 50mm would more than halve your space energy requirements. 
 

IR is classed as direct electric - your built SAP score with LPG and IR is going to be really challenging … 

[SteamyTea]

If IR heating was so brilliant, we would see it in almost every house.

Apart from an old Granny 1 bar heater, or in a bathroom, does anyone know of anyone that uses it?