Zoot wood balcony job.

[zoothorn]

@Onoff great help there. Come to my rescue again!

 

The ledger board's solidity, I'd assume dependent upon not hitting the block's mortar.. & not going all the way through (or the fischer gubbins will fall into void). 

 

And the 'pacific ocean' render: on the 1st wall face, thankfully the front of house, Mr. Render did a cracking job: subtle contouring (blends like a boss to adjacent old stone cttg shell). But he went a bit nuts on the 2nd & 3rd. 2nd = my balcony face. In retrospect I should've asked him to smooth a 6x2x4m ledger board area. But had no clue at this stage. Resulting in a very wavey 14" x 2" high "waves". Me, attatching a ledger board to this, well... not a hope in hell. 

 

Both of these 'tricky' aspects then, plus the legs holes idea  (finally understood!!) fairly critical re placement & leveling/ plumbing.. makes this too tricky for me too.
 

So it's sensible to get in my pro chap to do these two important jobs. Then I'm away.

 

Thanks. Zoot
 

 

 

And the

[zoothorn]

21 hours ago, PeterW said:

Sorry !! Got told off for using 6x2 and 4x4 etc and now drop to metric ..!! @Onoff is correct in what he’s said..!

 

@zoothorn 50mm forstner or flat bit will be fine in an electric drill - just keep it square to the leg..!

 

for your lumpy wall, you need some short lengths( no more than 40mm)

of 25mm steel conduit and a couple of cheap disposable  25mm flat bits. Mark the wall, drill through the render in 5 equal spots until you hit the blocks. At this point you can drill 80mm into the block (mark the drill bit ..!!!!) and use a resin stud and insert a 200mm stud. Slide the conduit over (paint it beforehand inside and out…! ) and then you have 5 nice studs to anchor your wall plate on to that are just proud of the render… drill the wall plate to match, studs through with washer and nut and all done. 
 

simples … 

Hi Peter. Thanks for this idea. I passed it by earlier/ didn't see it. I pretty much understand it. Mostly. Conduit.. is heavy guage metal pipe? So cutting this would need some chutzpa is my first concern.

 

Im only partly on board though. Do these conduit bits hang on the studs prior to placing the ledger board over & on? Sort of like my standoff heat stove barrier?

 

If so, the thing that I'd surely find trickiest (however this ledger board is fixed) is due to the wavey wall, getting it fixed on perfectly vertical. In order for the rest of the timbers to sit correctly, & the deck level, getting the first main board onto which it all attaches vertical (& level too).. seems really critical. I just don't see how I can do it, even measuring say 8x individual conduit bits for their individually deep places. It's gonna rock, its never gonna be vertical. However good I do this idea. Each wavey wall 'trench' you see.. is slightly different.

 

 Thanks Zoot.

 

 

[Onoff]

The conduit spacers keep the back of the ledger away from the wavy wall face. As long as you keep the drill reasonably on the level when you drill it'll all work out. The big square washers go between the end of the conduit and wall side of the ledger. That'll help stop any "rock". Tbh the ledger will naturally "bend" vertical. 

 

I'd pre drill the cut to length ledger with 14mm holes for the M12 studs. (You need to work the spacings out so they miss your 150x50 joists). 

 

I'd then prop the ledger up on some timbers and get it dead level. Drill through the ledger with a 14mm masonry bit just to mark the wall. 

 

Take the ledger down and drill thru your render with a sacrificial 20mm spade bit . Drill into the block with a 14mm masonry bit, go 80mm deep. 

 

Use a puffer to clean the holes out. 

 

Pump resin into the 80mm hole, push the M12 stainless stud in and slip in the 19mm OD X 40mm long stainless spacer. (I'll pre cut these here for you and post if you want). Leave for the resin to set. 

 

At this point I'd go around the spacer where it projects out of the render with say CT1. 

 

Slip on square washers over the stud, against the spacer then put the ledger on. You'll likely need help to do that. You might need to open up the odd hole in the ledger. 

 

 

[PeterW]

1 hour ago, Onoff said:

The conduit spacers keep the back of the ledger away from the wavy wall face. As long as you keep the drill reasonably on the level when you drill it'll all work out. The big square washers go between the end of the conduit and wall side of the ledger. That'll help stop any "rock". Tbh the ledger will naturally "bend" vertical. 

 

I'd pre drill the cut to length ledger with 14mm holes for the M12 studs. (You need to work the spacings out so they miss your 150x50 joists). 

 

I'd then prop the ledger up on some timbers and get it dead level. Drill through the ledger with a 14mm masonry bit just to mark the wall. 

 

Take the ledger down and drill thru your render with a sacrificial 20mm spade bit . Drill into the block with a 14mm masonry bit, go 80mm deep. 

 

Use a puffer to clean the holes out. 

 

Pump resin into the 80mm hole, push the M12 stainless stud in and slip in the 19mm OD X 40mm long stainless spacer. (I'll pre cut these here for you and post if you want). Leave for the resin to set. 

 

At this point I'd go around the spacer where it projects out of the render with say CT1. 

 

Slip on square washers over the stud, against the spacer then put the ledger on. You'll likely need help to do that. You might need to open up the odd hole in the ledger. 

 

 

All this plus 1..!!

 

Only amendment I would make is drilling 5 holes 25mm offset from the centre line - 3 up and 2 down if that makes sense so you have the top 3 50mm from the top, bottom 2 in the gaps 50mm from the bottom edge. Will stop it rocking and easier to level. 
 

Agree with using 14/15mm holes and aligning as you go. 

[PeterW]

2 hours ago, zoothorn said:

Each wavey wall 'trench' you see.. is slightly different.

Yes however the blockwork behind is level / plumb so the trick is to cut away the render with the cheapo flat blades then work from that. And do you really mean 2” deep waves ..???! That’s a massive difference ..! 

[Onoff]

So is it 40/50/60mm spacers if 2" high "waves"?

 

Could print some in PETG...

[zoothorn]

9 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Yes however the blockwork behind is level / plumb so the trick is to cut away the render with the cheapo flat blades then work from that. And do you really mean 2” deep waves ..???! That’s a massive difference ..! 

Ahaha! Got it. Right so this is the ( main) reason to 20mm flat bit the render away.. to find the start of the block. Bingo.

 

Unless I hit the block's mortar. Hmm.. would the doors frame, actually it's placcy cill ( which protrudes.. I'll ask about this later/ note to myself) likely be sitting upon a full block layer-?

 

If very likely it is, then I have a good chance to aim into block.

 

Ok prep a step forward. Maybe I could do this ledger board ok then.

 

Fab help Peter. Thanks, zoot.

 

 

[PeterW]

Yep - carry on !

[Onoff]

So how many studs does he need in total?

 

I've some stainless flat bar here. I could knock up some square washers at least for the rear, between spacer and ledger. 

[PeterW]

If it’s a 3m ledger then 5 M12 will be fine - would make them every 500mm if he started 250mm from each end. Couple of extras as spares / packers and he’s sorted. 

[zoothorn]

4 hours ago, Onoff said:

So how many studs does he need in total?

 

I've some stainless flat bar here. I could knock up some square washers at least for the rear, between spacer and ledger. 

Hi Onoff. Really appreciate your input here, just read your replies on this subject last evening.
 

I'll get a better idea of the waves peak height, from the block, later today. My 2" might be a conservative figure.. poss 1".

 

Best not have excessively high conduit whatnots Id have thought.

 

cheers, zoot.

[joe90]

Zoot, how many “highs” have you got? Is it worth marking them and angle grinding them back flat just fir the wall plateau get over the worst? 🤷‍♂️

[Onoff]

2 hours ago, zoothorn said:

Best not have excessively high conduit whatnots Id have thought.

 

Two schools of thought, a bigger gap will drain, get air to the back of the timber etc. Too tight might encourage say wasps and or get full of damp retaining crap. 

 

I'll cut the tubes to whatever you want. 

[Onoff]

OK, tube spacers no issue. 

 

The flat washers. Just realised I used the 5mm plate to make lintels for the gate pillars. Think there's more somewhere but where...

 

With what I have to hand I can do:

 

10 off - 30x30x5. Grade 316.

 

10 off - 70x70x2 . I think Grade 304. 

 

14mm hole in the centre of each. 

 

They'll be cut square enough and de-burred. 

 

Which ones?

[zoothorn]

On 13/06/2022 at 11:12, joe90 said:

Zoot, how many “highs” have you got? Is it worth marking them and angle grinding them back flat just fir the wall plateau get over the worst? 🤷‍♂️

Hi Joe90. Deluged with (paid) work/ delayed reply..

 

well about 8 along, sometimes some 'hillocks' on a second row too as it were. So about 13 or so total.

 

@Onoff I'm a bit behind but I'll get the 20mm flat bit out tmrw & drill down to a block face. Btw would the standoff conduit idea help by not blocking the tiny placcy block vents?
 

Pic 2 shows one of these odd 'vents' have seeped some stuff from, godknows what, seems a flow of calcified rain drips.. (seen here on the 'flatter' front of house 1st face). 
 

The first pic is where balcony to go. Its like the house has mumps.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[joe90]

Actually I agree stand off probably better, drainage behind etc.

[zoothorn]

On 13/06/2022 at 12:30, Onoff said:

 

Two schools of thought, a bigger gap will drain, get air to the back of the timber etc. Too tight might encourage say wasps and or get full of damp retaining crap. 

 

I'll cut the tubes to whatever you want. 

Hi Onoff. I get good airflow against here/ wind pummels it, always this direction.. but good points. I can't really give an answer as to which though.

 

Maybe just go with highest hillock, plus a few mm's? 

When you say 30x30.. what is the 5? The thickness of the steel tube section? It might seem this one preferable to the 70x70 ones.

 

Thanks alot, Zoot

 

Thanks,
 

[Onoff]

34 minutes ago, zoothorn said:

When you say 30x30.. what is the 5? The thickness of the steel tube section? It might seem this one preferable to the 70x70 ones.

 

Give me strength!

 

 

I can do lots of either tube

 

I may not be able to 13 of either square washer. 10 yes, for certain. 

[zoothorn]

1 hour ago, Onoff said:

 

Give me strength!

 

 

I can do lots of either tube

 

I may not be able to 13 of either square washer. 10 yes, for certain. 

Ok sorry Im not on board with the washers yet.

 

I can so far understand the bits of tubing as standoff spacers, which is what I thought the 5 referred to. The thickness. But not then.

 

Is the tube bits to sit inside the washers inner diameter hole or something? I'm rather lost tbh. Or to spread the weight pushing onto the block? This seems reasonably logical. Im just thinking/ writing out loud.

 

I need to go back & read all the replies, ideas. It takes me many many times reading to understand proposed ideas you see. (Often even still I just can't.. without idiot-proof translation).

 

I told you.. I'm an idiot.

 

Thanks, Zh

[Onoff]

6 hours ago, zoothorn said:

I'm an idiot.

 

No, just several kinds of special!

 

Once again, same drawing as before:

 

 

The spacer projects slightly beyond the highest peak in the render. Not drawn too clearly but I assumed you'd grasp the idea. I'm doing these fag packet sketches on the fly with a Sharpie. 

 

A big square washer sits over the M12 stud and against the end of the stainless spacer. Ideally both spacer, stud and washer are stainless steel as you won't get to them again. 

 

The ledger plate sits over the stud against the square washer.

 

Another big square washer, spring washer (to lock the nut) and nut secure the ledger. 

 

The square washers spread the point load over the timber faces - normal, little round washers would dig in to the timber face. They also help stop "rocking" a bit. 

 

The loads are thus transmitted to the blockwork not the render.

 

You'll want to seal up where the spacers penetrate the render, with silicone. Same when you put the first square washer on. Squidge some silicone around where the stud comes out of the spacer then put the square washer on.

 

 

I don't think I could work with special children and that's from a parent who has one 😂

[Onoff]

This shows the concept of square washers from when I built the kids tree house. Coach bolts, in this case bright zinc plated (BZP) go through the square washers. The nuts on the back are covered by plastic covers.

 

 

 

[zoothorn]

@Onoff hi there, great thanks I was going to go back over your cross section sketch, but tbh Id not have spotted the standoff!

 

Ok I'm on board pretty much with that then. Alot more complicated than I thought. But I should be able to follow. Once this sodding ledger board up.. the frame is plain sailing. Apart from my 2 legs.

 

Anyway. Drilled into me render. And this is how inept I am: I can't tell if I've gone down into block, or Im still in render. I've chosen a dip area to drill in from (my brain worked that out itself) & gone in 3/8" with a 20mm flat bit: surely I should be into block by now? I can't seem to tell tho.
 

Sheesh.. I am special alright. Zh
 

 

[zoothorn]

Hi chaps, apologies for absence- currently ill, got 3 oldies needs to deal with, & a deluge of (paid) work.

 

Will hop back on board midweek. Then to get the ball rolling.

 

Fab help so far, zooter.

 

 

[zoothorn]

..

 

 

Edited June 30, 2022 by zoothorn

[zoothorn]

Hi chaps. Sorry been resting with one of those embarrassing body issues.

 

Im ok to crack on. But I am hopelessly stuck, & feel idiot-panic creeping in. Im trying to establish where the block surface starts, but I can't. Unless I find this it seems, I can't start the job.

 

I flat-bit drill into the render. Im starting at a dip. I drill in 2 cm. It seems I'm still in render. Or am I in block? i cannot tell.

 

As the two are " grey" I cannot distinguish a boundary. When I drill I push the ground render fwd, hampering seeng a sudden change/ boundary. I scrape & brush. I cannot see a boundary.
 

I try onto an offcut block, hoping I might " feel" a clear difference to the render. But it feel similarly soft/ hard. Ive no idea how thick the render was applied at the 'dips' so have no clue of an approximate idea of where the block starts.

 

Is there anything else I can do? Thanks, Zoot.