May 29, 20224 yr From the EDP this morning: https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/housing/norwich-east-masterplan-mike-stonard-9001076#article-comments-coral Will the solution be there for self-builders though?
May 29, 20224 yr "We hope we can resolve the issue by the Spring" Erm we are almost in summer, so does that mean it will not be resolved until Spring 2023?
May 29, 20224 yr 1 hour ago, ProDave said: "We hope we can resolve the issue by the Spring" Erm we are almost in summer, so does that mean it will not be resolved until Spring 2023? Yes. The deadline for the consultants is May 2023, with a proviso that it may take till May 2024 at the latest. It's not clear whether either deadline is simply to identify and plan mitigation solutions, or to have them up and running as well.
May 29, 20224 yr If your condition only applies to surface water I would make that absolutely clear in an application to discharge. Propose a soakaway on the grounds that this will be nutrient neutral as it maintains current surface water outflows to ground water. Ask them to consult Natural England. Edited May 29, 20224 yr by Temp
May 29, 20224 yr 21 minutes ago, Temp said: If your condition only applies to surface water I would make that absolutely clear in an application to discharge. Propose a soakaway on the grounds that this will be nutrient neutral as it maintains current surface water outflows to ground water. Ask them to consult Natural England. Our planning application is passed with a packaged treatment plant, we had wanted to go onto the mains and have begun works to do that, with the plan of putting the change in as an amendment. The council were in favour of that approach, but this will of course now be a u-turn. We can proceed with the treatment plant route if we have to. Our surface water condition requires us to agree a plan before we can proceed beyond foundation level and it's that we're stuck on. Our plan is and has always been to harvest the rainwater, presumably with a soakaway overflow. I can't really see how you can do any better than that? Our house does not alter the amount of rain that will fall onto our plot, so hoping some common sense emerges. We have a round of amendments to do that will also be caught up in this, we are told that material amendments will not be considered at this time, so hopefully we can get most of them through as non-material amendments and skirt around this. They are only things like window size alterations (not positions) etc. For the time being, we are going to get started on the foundations and hope for the best as our Nudura blocks are en-route so we have to take that delivery in the next few weeks regardless.
May 29, 20224 yr 59 minutes ago, Mulberry View said: Our plan is and has always been to harvest the rainwater, presumably with a soakaway overflow You can cite that rainwater harvesting is an accepted method of reducing nutrient emissions attributable to surface water.. https://www.waterwise.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2021/10/A-Review-of-Water-Neutrality-in-the-UK-03.02.2021-1-1.pdf Quote There are three steps to achieving water neutrality; (1) reducing water use by making the new build as water efficient as possible, (2) installing water reuse systems, such as rainwater harvesting or grey water recycling and, (3) offsetting any remaining demand in the existing local region.
June 2, 20224 yr Well, looookey here. https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/housing/newton-flotman-31-homes-approved-9009646 The precedent has been set, in our area at least. That has be to be progress....
June 3, 20224 yr On 02/06/2022 at 11:53, Mulberry View said: Well, looookey here. https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/housing/newton-flotman-31-homes-approved-9009646 The precedent has been set, in our area at least. That has be to be progress.... Looks like it's only approved subject to the council being satisfied it will not lead to excess nutrients entering the waterways. So no full planning approval yet. As it's old farmland, it may not require mitigation anyway.
June 3, 20224 yr 55 minutes ago, ErgoFergo said: Looks like it's only approved subject to the council being satisfied it will not lead to excess nutrients entering the waterways. So no full planning approval yet. As it's old farmland, it may not require mitigation anyway. ,No, but at least it's being considered. We were of the understanding that they aren't considering anything at present. Our current requirement is the discharge of our Surface Water Plan condition and our plan for that involves a fair bit of rainwater harvesting, so perhaps we're as neutral in that respect.
June 3, 20224 yr I've been playing around with the Natural England’s nutrient calculator.. https://www.push.gov.uk/wp-content/uploads/2020/06/Nitrogen-Budget-Calculator-June-2020.xlsx I put in figures for my existing house and paddock. (For example if I was to do a knock down and rebuild). If I enter the current use as: 0.2Ha Urban (eg my house and garden) 0.6Ha Grassland (eg the Paddock) and propose a "development" that leaves this unchanged.. 0.2Ha Urban (eg my house and garden) 0.6Ha Open space (no option to retain Grassland) It correctly says the net change in Nitrogen is zero but gives a total budget of 2.9kg/year for the development and you get the red "Mitigation Required". So I wondered what I could do on the paddock that would reduce it.. Making it a Nature Reserve, woodland or orchard doesn't change anything. Making it into Allotments increases Nitrogen emissions increase by 13kg per year There are no other options on the calculator. Just for a laugh I told it I was going to knock my house down not rebuild it, just convert it all to open space. It said the Nitrogen Emission budget for the development was still positive at 0.7kg/year. Edited June 3, 20224 yr by Temp
June 3, 20224 yr Tip.. If you want to build a house buy a plot from a pig farmer or one that's currently Allotments.
June 3, 20224 yr 5 hours ago, Temp said: 2.9kg/year Is that for the whole site (0.6 Ha), or 'per some land area i.e. m2
June 3, 20224 yr 1 hour ago, SteamyTea said: Is that for the whole site (0.6 Ha), or 'per some land area i.e. m2 The "whole development" so yes whole site.
June 5, 20224 yr I applied for a knockdown and rebuild (6 x the size) got that through. Because i'm on green belt, i went back in to planning for a new permission, which added a 1250sq ft basement. I am in one of the areas affected, and also have another problem because Ashridge park is close by, and the council has identified that the park is being damaged by too many visitors. At first the planning officer said that i would not be given a decision because of both the above matters untill some sort of mitigation strategy had been sorted out. I pointed out that my application was not for a new, but for a replacement dwelling. (It will go from 1 toilet and a shower, to 7 toilets, 6 showers, and 1 bath) He just said "Oh, Ok" and passed it. My application basically said i would connect to existing mains sewage. I made no mention of what i would do with rain water. Perhaps i was just lucky ?
June 5, 20224 yr On 03/06/2022 at 23:54, Temp said: The "whole development" so yes whole site. So less that half a gram per m² every year. I don't know how deadly these nitrates and phosphates are, but at a mean delivery of 1.3 mg a day, I would like to see some peer reviewed evidence that it is a real problem.
June 5, 20224 yr Author All If your project is a replacement dwelling then it is not impacted as you are already 'contributing' to the problem and hence they cannot stop you adding to it ! Bob
June 7, 20224 yr It looks like Norfolk councils held an online forum for planning agents yesterday and they've put the slides on their planning website, at the bottom of this page: https://www.southnorfolkandbroadland.gov.uk/downloads/download/816/nutrient-neutrality It outlines short- and long-term plans and predicted timescales. Might be helpful for people in other affected areas too. It still doesn't address how the council plans to handle those with full planning but with drainage conditions.
June 9, 20224 yr On 07/06/2022 at 17:24, ErgoFergo said: It looks like Norfolk councils held an online forum for planning agents yesterday and they've put the slides on their planning website, at the bottom of this page: https://www.southnorfolkandbroadland.gov.uk/downloads/download/816/nutrient-neutrality It outlines short- and long-term plans and predicted timescales. Might be helpful for people in other affected areas too. It still doesn't address how the council plans to handle those with full planning but with drainage conditions. Great link thanks! I went to the planning update and they said if you’re in Norfolk there will be some temporary measures in the next 6 weeks, but the longterm is hard to know. I think it might rely on other counties and changing the legal precedent. Hope it gets sorted soon for people. I’ve heard some pretty high figures for the levy.
June 16, 20224 yr On 09/06/2022 at 20:02, CharlieKLP said: Great link thanks! I went to the planning update and they said if you’re in Norfolk there will be some temporary measures in the next 6 weeks, but the longterm is hard to know. I think it might rely on other counties and changing the legal precedent. Hope it gets sorted soon for people. I’ve heard some pretty high figures for the levy. Hi @CharlieKLP. What kind of figures have you heard? I've seen them range from £5k upwards, but am concerned it could be more for self-builders who don't have the economies of scale of large developers. Actually, I'm more concerned that the council won't come up with anything for individual builders any time soon.
June 16, 20224 yr I have heard that it will be a credit system, and that the average house will require 2 credits. I have heard that each credit could be £25k ! If so that will put a stop to a lot of developement.
June 16, 20224 yr 1 hour ago, Big Jimbo said: I have heard that it will be a credit system, and that the average house will require 2 credits. I have heard that each credit could be £25k ! If so that will put a stop to a lot of developement. Really?? In Eastleigh, the cost per credit is £3000 plus VAT. I think there are also admin and legal fees to pay on top of this.
June 16, 20224 yr At attempt to ball part the figures.. From the USA but.. https://home.engineering.iastate.edu/~tge/ce421-521/ishadeep.pdf Quote Nitrogen is wetlands can also be removed by nutrient uptake of plants. The plants uptake nitrogen in the form of ammonium or nitrate, which is then stored in the plant in the organic form. The uptake capacity of emergent plant species in constructed wetlands can vary from 200 to 2500 Kg.ha-1year-1 So it appears you need between 0.001 ha and 0.01 ha of new wetland per house. 0.001 ha = 10 sqm 0.01ha = 100 sqm Has some costs for different types of habitat.. https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/6034ef5ee90e0766033f2ea7/Cost_estimation_for_habitat_creation.pdf Seems to range from say £10,000 to £23,000 per ha. Suggests an initial cost per house in the range.. 0.001 ha = £10 to £23 0.01 ha = £100 to £230 So if they are charging 10-20 times that perhaps the running costs are significant. Would be interesting to know how they arrive at £thousands per house.
June 27, 20224 yr Latest update from Kent: We paid £500 + vat (!) for a consultant to report on the nutrient load for our development. It turns out that our 4 x self-build plots will need to offset a total loading of 3.23kg of nitrates pa (zero phosphates), irrespective of what the final designs/specifications will be (we’re only looking for outline consent). Apparently 1ha (10,000m2) wetland can deal with 900kg of nitrates (on average), so 0.09kg needs 1m2, which means we need to get hold of 35.89m2 of wetland to cope with our 3.23kg. Given that a wetland needs to be at least 2.2ha in order to function properly, I’ve approached a couple of developments with their own wetlands to see whether they’d sell us a 6m x 6m slice, but with no joy. The general reason is that they don’t want to add any further complications to their mitigation calculations and risk jeopardising their approval, but they also want to hold on to any spare wetland capacity to offset other projects. Interestingly, I’ve been told that the local council are struggling to find any land suitable for converting into wetlands, and when they have found any, they’ve been outbid by private developers. So it looks like they’re not going to be able to offer a mitigation credit/offsite contribution system anytime soon. And so it drags on.
June 27, 20224 yr 7 minutes ago, Paul K said: Latest update from Kent: We paid £500 + vat (!) for a consultant to report on the nutrient load for our development. It turns out that our 4 x self-build plots will need to offset a total loading of 3.23kg of nitrates pa (zero phosphates), irrespective of what the final designs/specifications will be (we’re only looking for outline consent). Apparently 1ha (10,000m2) wetland can deal with 900kg of nitrates (on average), so 0.09kg needs 1m2, which means we need to get hold of 35.89m2 of wetland to cope with our 3.23kg. Given that a wetland needs to be at least 2.2ha in order to function properly, I’ve approached a couple of developments with their own wetlands to see whether they’d sell us a 6m x 6m slice, but with no joy. The general reason is that they don’t want to add any further complications to their mitigation calculations and risk jeopardising their approval, but they also want to hold on to any spare wetland capacity to offset other projects. Interestingly, I’ve been told that the local council are struggling to find any land suitable for converting into wetlands, and when they have found any, they’ve been outbid by private developers. So it looks like they’re not going to be able to offer a mitigation credit/offsite contribution system anytime soon. And so it drags on. Another approach might be to buy a small area of a pig farm and take it out of use. I think the Natural England calculator has data for pig farms already built in because part of the calculation for a new dvelopment depends on what the land is used for currently. I think it can also handle mixed use so you can tell it your development will replace X square meters of pig farm and Y square meters of other land with X+Y Square meters of development. That should allow you to play around to work out how much pig farm you would need to buy to break even. Might not be much.
June 27, 20224 yr Just had a look at the calculator and pig/poultry farm land is estimated at 70kg/ha/y. Green field/open space is 5kg/ha/y. So converting pig farm to open space saves 65kg/ha/y. So you would need about 3.23/65 × 10,000 = 500sqm or a patch about 22m x 22m. My guess is you would need to buy it and put a covenant on it preventing future use as a pig/poultry farm or other high nutrient use. But after that you might be able to sell it, possibly back to the farmer :-)
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