Structural Issues/Subsidence

[Zak S]

I have heard from the agent and they were quite dismissive of my concern saying that if I dont want to buy at the agreed price they will list it back on the market and some cash buyer will buy it straight away as "there are big ships living on that road". I only asked if the vendor would be ok to claim on their insurance and what would be the likely impact on mortgagability and insurance cover?

 

I have asked the structural surveyor to do the inspection focused on subsidence, rotted timber and damp and he has said they would carry out the visual inspection but detailed inspection for damp and timber would need to be done by relevant experts and they can look at the result of it then.

 

What are your thoughts on both of the above points?

[markc]

Why should the vendor claim on their insurance? Sorry, but you either want to buy it or you don’t.

 

[Jilly]

58 minutes ago, Zak S said:

 

 

I have asked the structural surveyor to do the inspection focused on subsidence, rotted timber and damp and he has said they would carry out the visual inspection but detailed inspection for damp and timber would need to be done by relevant experts and they can look at the result of it then.

 

 

They often have a few caveats like 'can't lift carpet to look at all floor timbers' or 'can't get in to inspect all of the roof'. They should be able to give you a structural opinion though and whether underpinning is likely to be needed. This is to some extent the 'joy' of renovating an old place and the risk you take (and also why some builders cont/won't give a fixed price). When you start stripping down an old house you sometimes find all manner of horrors. 

 

Demolition and rebuild is a far more certain affair (foundation system notwithstanding)to price up, hence the developers interest. Investigate the planning situation on this option tho' as occasionally the council don't want demolition and rebuild, and so extending under permitted development is all you can do, so one part of the building is old and has some compromises. 

 

 

[Zak S]

1 hour ago, markc said:

Why should the vendor claim on their insurance? Sorry, but you either want to buy it or you don’t.

 

So the person living in there passed away. He had insurance. Property subsided. What is the point of having insurance if it can be claimed. It is quite common for buyer to ask for things to be fixed as a part of purchasing properties. I had experience with two other properties where vendors claimed on their insurance to get leak fixed in the roof etc. Saying "either you buy it as is or walk away" seems a bit harsh as response. Explanation (e.g. lack of insurance cover etc) with the reason might be a bit more sensible.

[Zak S]

12 minutes ago, Jilly said:

They often have a few caveats like 'can't lift carpet to look at all floor timbers' or 'can't get in to inspect all of the roof'. They should be able to give you a structural opinion though and whether underpinning is likely to be needed. This is to some extent the 'joy' of renovating an old place and the risk you take (and also why some builders cont/won't give a fixed price). When you start stripping down an old house you sometimes find all manner of horrors. 

 

Demolition and rebuild is a far more certain affair (foundation system notwithstanding)to price up, hence the developers interest. Investigate the planning situation on this option tho' as occasionally the council don't want demolition and rebuild, and so extending under permitted development is all you can do, so one part of the building is old and has some compromises. 

 

 

That road is literally like a building site right now. At least 15% of the residents are property developers. So there is decent precedent that new build would not be an issue. But understand the attractiveness of the renovation.

[saveasteading]

31 minutes ago, Jilly said:

I have asked the structural surveyor to do the inspection focused on subsidence

If the surveyor tells you there is subsidence , and that means you will pull out, then you don't need a written report. That can halve the fee, as it saves time and there is minimal legal  liability.

[Russell griffiths]

4 minutes ago, Zak S said:

That road is literally like a building site right now. At least 15% of the residents are property developers. So there is decent precedent that new build would not be an issue. But understand the attractiveness of the renovation.

That answers your question 

do you want to play with the big boys or dither around like a wally if you don’t buy it somebody else will, if you have the funds get it bought get it knocked down and build the million dollar house the site needs. 

 

[AliG]

Sorry @Zak S but you are going about this in a very odd way.

 

1. The subsidence has clearly been there for some time, so it is not something that can be claimed on insurance as it is pre existing.

 

2. The problem was very clearly there when you bid on the property. If you start acting like the cost of fixing it is a problem now, the seller is not going to be impressed. Unless your original offer was subject to fixing it, then they will just put it back up for sale, or sell it to the second bidder. You are wasting money on the surveyor unless it is needed to back out of the deal. You already seem to have a report that says that the ground is too soft to build on without piles.

 

3. The idea of buying it at the agreed price and then them paying to have it fixed is very strange. It has all kinds of issues. You would be paying too much SDLT, they could end up having to pay inheritance tax on it and the lender is unlikely to be impressed.

 

Over-riding all of this is that you know that the ground has issues. It would be a very bad idea to pay a high price for the house and then refurbish it. You could have more issues down the line. Knocking it down and properly rebuilding it seems like by far the best option, so you should run the numbers based on that. If that means pulling out, then so be it.

 

It is hard to say what state the property market is in, I would have said prices had increased since last summer ex recent issues. The thing I would be more concerned about is that building costs have continued to increase. If most people are looking at this as a development opportunity then that is likely to have the most impact on the value.

 

[Zak S]

7 minutes ago, saveasteading said:

If the surveyor tells you there is subsidence , and that means you will pull out, then you don't need a written report. That can halve the fee, as it saves time and there is minimal legal  liability.

Thanks. As far as extension is concerned the vendor and estate agents have accepted there is subsidence. The main reason for asking the surveyour is to check if the main house is ok. If there are issue with main house then we walk straight away. 

 

In terms of written reports fge surveyor said that there not great deal of saving as they have set template which they fill and the main cost is the time travelling and inspection the property. He quoted me 595+vat which seem pretty reasonable?

[Zak S]

20 minutes ago, AliG said:

 

Over-riding all of this is that you know that the ground has issues. It would be a very bad idea to pay a high price for the house and then refurbish it. You could have more issues down the line. Knocking it down and properly rebuilding it seems like by far the best option, so you should run the numbers based on that. If that means pulling out, then so be it.

 

It is hard to say what state the property market is in, I would have said prices had increased since last summer ex recent issues. The thing I would be more concerned about is that building costs have continued to increase. If most people are looking at this as a development opportunity then that is likely to have the most impact on the value

Thanks. Knocking it down is the best option and I totally agree but I dont want it to be the only option as it removes the flexibility. I cannot knock it down right away and hence need to refurbish initially to make it comfortable. Once my other projects are done then focus in it depending on the cashflow and market conditions. That's the main reason behind little dithering. I might be paying £30k higher than second bid and unless market crashes it unlikely to lose any money.

 

Building cost has increased does it mean for the cash buyer/developer this would be less attractive option hence they would be willing to pay lesser rather than more or increase in building cost is offset by increase in house prices and hence net neutral and so it remains attractive proposition?

 

Everyone has a certain risk appetite, if the main house has subsidence than risk becomes to much to handle and I will have to wall away.

 

Extension issue can be managed. The drain surveyor said that there are roots inside (near the extension) so might be leakage causing the ground/soil to sink. Will get the CCTV survey done to confirm.

Edited February 28, 2022 by Zak S

[PeterW]

10 minutes ago, Zak S said:

Building cost has increased does it mean for the cash buyer/developer this would be less attractive option hence they would be willing to pay lesser rather than more or increase in building cost is offset by increase in house prices and hence net neutral and so it remains attractive proposition?

 For a main build developer or a one property type developer..? Most companies haven’t seen internal costs increase, just subbies and materials in part but they are coming down now anyway. 

[ProDave]

11 minutes ago, Zak S said:

Thanks. Knocking it down is the best option and I totally agree but I dont want it to be the only option as it removes the flexibility. I cannot knock it down right away and hence need to refurbish initially to make it comfortable. Once my other projects are done then focus in it depending on the cashflow and market conditions. That's the main reason behind little dithering. I might be paying £30k higher than second bid and unless market crashes it unlikely to lose any money.

If any "renovation" is only a short term plan, then honestly don't worry about any cracks if the buldozer is the eventual thing.  Cracks and subsidence only matter if you are going to properly renovate it for sale.

 

Even with those cracks, I doubt anything is going to fall down any time soon.

[Zak S]

1 hour ago, PeterW said:

 For a main build developer or a one property type developer..? Most companies haven’t seen internal costs increase, just subbies and materials in part but they are coming down now anyway. 

No not for the likes of Barratt Homes but for small developers developing fewer properties at one time.

Edited February 28, 2022 by Zak S

[PeterW]

I’m not talking your large scale devs - even your spec builders (so less than 5 houses a year) are seeing price decreases now. Blocks are coming down on 1st April from one merchant I know, others will follow. 

[Zak S]

1 hour ago, ProDave said:

If any "renovation" is only a short term plan, then honestly don't worry about any cracks if the buldozer is the eventual thing.  Cracks and subsidence only matter if you are going to properly renovate it for sale.

 

Even with those cracks, I doubt anything is going to fall down any time soon.

We had sort of made our mind about the cracks in the extension that these would not be the reason to walk away from the deal. We are going ahead with structural survey and spend 600.00 for the peace of mind on the main house

 

Its going to be our long term home hopefully so as long as main house is ok we would proceed.

[PeterW]

How much can you afford to lose off a mortgage offer if the bank say they want to reduce their part by £30k to cover remediation costs ..? You also need to bear that in mind. 

[Marvin]

44 minutes ago, Zak S said:

We had sort of made our mind about the cracks in the extension that these would not be the reason to walk away from the deal. We are going ahead with structural survey and spend 600.00 for the peace of mind on the main house

 

Its going to be our long term home hopefully so as long as main house is ok we would proceed.

You own the survey and it is confidential and you should keep it that way unless it acts as a lever to reduce the price.

 

If the sellers get wind that it's all OK, they may change their mind on price or purchaser. 

[Zak S]

1 hour ago, PeterW said:

How much can you afford to lose off a mortgage offer if the bank say they want to reduce their part by £30k to cover remediation costs ..? You also need to bear that in mind. 

Grear point. That would be a big no for us and the reverse of what I was thinking. Sometime bank hold off releasing the money until remediation work has been done and then release the money once they are satisfied.

Edited February 28, 2022 by Zak S

[Zak S]

UPDATE: I have now received the structural survey report and it is attached. It seems partly good news and partly not so good! Good news is that it suggest the cause of subsidence relating to drainage issue (though not conclusive and ask for additional intrusive survey work to be carried out). Not sure what would that be.

 

Not so good news is that it mention progressive subsidence in the extension area and also in rear wall under window and in the porch. But it offsets it buy saying the cracks are mainly where the drainage is.

 

It suggest that we do the drainage rectification work and then monitor in 9-12 month is the issue is stopped or still ongoing. Not sure how cracks can be monitored. Is the survey report to worry about or is it not bad. I am not familiar with structural survey so cant say either one or the other hence I have mixed feeling. 

357422325_StructuralSurvey-MMD042068101753(1)-compressed.pdf

[PeterW]

1 hour ago, Zak S said:

Not sure how cracks can be monitored

Standard method is bonded glass or slide markers - photos are taken or measurements and then the crack sizes recoded over time. 
 

Quite a lot of work to do there - rebuild of the wall etc along with confirmation of any drainage issues which could require new drains or soakaways. 

[Zak S]

26 minutes ago, PeterW said:

Quite a lot of work to do there - rebuild of the wall etc along with confirmation of any drainage issues which could require new drains or soakaways. 

I have already had the CCTV survey done and they identified some crack with roots coming in near the wall where subsidence was. He suggested three patches on the front side at £300 per patch. At the rear the guy missed the stormwater drain so will come back and clear the blockage.

 

Couple of the wall rebuilds required are 3m wide and floor leveling by these can only be done once drainage has been fixed and cracks monitored. How long we are required to monitor these. Plus I am not sure what should be cost 3.5x2.9 block wall. I need to get some quotes. 

 

Is there anything in there which require drastic  measure as underpinning etc? I cant think of any.

 

PS: soakways wont work here due to here due to high water table so just need to fix the drainage issue. 

Edited March 10, 2022 by Zak S

[Zak S]

Further Update: so spoke with Surveyour and he really helped to put my concern at ease. He said the issues are most definitely related to the drainage. Further intrusive investigation required has already been done in the form of Geo Technical Survey. So in summary fixed the drainage may be £1500.00 outlay plus rebuild the floor slabs and utility area wall at approx cost of 10k. Then involve the local architect for the build upward who will employ the relevant engineer to assess the strenght of existing foundation.  Then we can decide if it's a rebuild altogether or build up. I am thinking the conversation with surveyour is on a positive so we will continue with our purchase...so just waiting for the probate to come through.