AHP 60 ASHP 6KW

[Jenki]

26 minutes ago, SteamyTea said:

While I agree that having modulation on the compressor is a good thing, for basic heating, for most of the time, how much of a difference will it make.

Fitting an oversize buffer tank would allow for storage of higher than optimum temperature water, while still limiting the number of cycles.

The next cheaper option with inverter I've had a quote of £1550 delivered ( Dream HP from eBay). So basically £450 extra or about a third. What would the payback be on that (in efficiency between the rotary and inverter compressor).

If I was to go for the two. 1 would only be heating the 300l tank for DHW. The other a 150l tank for DHW and a buffer tank for UFH with excess PV topping up the DHW.

Gut feel it's worth a punt? Plus I can claim the VAT back on it.

Is there any big red flags to anyone?

[SteamyTea]

6 minutes ago, Jenki said:

What would the payback be on that (in efficiency between the rotary and inverter compressor).

Can't really say without seeing real world data.

But a sales person would tell you none, 10% or 30% depending on what you want to hear.

 

I think you should go for it, then tell us all how well, or not, it works.

 

  

6 minutes ago, Jenki said:

Plus I can claim the VAT back on it.

By it, and a proper one.  Then flog he proper one after you have the VAT back.

Or sell the duff one.

Edited February 23, 2022 by SteamyTea

[Iceverge]

You can buy an Atlantic (french) Explorer 270L ESHP cylinder for about €2200 Inc VAT in Ireland with a 5 year warranty. No reason that one wouldn't suffice.  Haven't seen them for sale in the UK but I'm sure theres similar avail.  

 

It has an inbuilt solar PV divert function , would require just standard plumbing to the cylinder and 2 X 160mm air ducts . No outdoor unit or extra electrics as max current is just the same as an immersion.  It dawns on me as an easier DIY install.

 

As it is a dedicated DHW solution I'd be tempted to believe the advertised COP of 2.5 - 3.0.   

 

https://www.toc.ie/products/explorer-fs-heat-pump-cylinder-270l-imp112.html

 

 

 

 

Edited February 23, 2022 by Iceverge

[Radian]

A buffer tank features in all the schematics as might be expected for a bang-bang compressor control. I couldn't see a figure for the actual starting current - only mention of using appropriate size conductors (with a generic looking list spanning 20A to 240A) to "to avoid difficulty in starting the compressor from the initial voltage drop" (p.13). It would help somewhat if they gave the actual effing current ?

 

Whatever, it would be interesting to see the real-world performance of these crates. Look at the photos of the ripply sheet metal reminds me that we used to be good at producing inexpensive metal-bashed products like these back in the days when the UK had a manufacturing industry. I see nothing much to suggest a factory door price of over £500. A 2HP compressor is in the order of £100 and the rest is the kind of engineering that goes into fridges or even car radiators. Lots of soldered copper tubing. The electronic control boards are the kind of thing I used to knock-out for theatre lighting manufacturers for use in their moving head projectors and club lighting effects. Almost any of today's Arduino fanboys could probably produce a workable design for an ASHP controller in a week or two.

 

I'm sure I once read that Ebac was going to make ASHPs, one of the few manufacturers running production lines in the UK.

[dpmiller]

8 minutes ago, Radian said:

A buffer tank features in all the schematics as might be expected for a bang-bang compressor control. I couldn't see a figure for the actual starting current - only mention of using appropriate size conductors (with a generic looking list spanning 20A to 240A) to "to avoid difficulty in starting the compressor from the initial voltage drop" (p.13). It would help somewhat if they gave the actual effing current ?

 

Whatever, it would be interesting to see the real-world performance of these crates. Look at the photos of the ripply sheet metal reminds me that we used to be good at producing inexpensive metal-bashed products like these back in the days when the UK had a manufacturing industry. I see nothing much to suggest a factory door price of over £500. A 2HP compressor is in the order of £100 and the rest is the kind of engineering that goes into fridges or even car radiators. Lots of soldered copper tubing. The electronic control boards are the kind of thing I used to knock-out for theatre lighting manufacturers for use in their moving head projectors and club lighting effects. Almost any of today's Arduino fanboys could probably produce a workable design for an ASHP controller in a week or two.

 

I'm sure I once read that Ebac was going to make ASHPs, one of the few manufacturers running production lines in the UK.

 

 

It's inverter. One very quick look at the schematic shows the compressor as having three connections WUV. Means 3-phase...

[Radian]

15 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

 

 

It's inverter. One very quick look at the schematic shows the compressor as having three connections WUV. Means 3-phase...

Good spotting. Hopeful then, but there is a diagram of three phase connection to a mains supply elsewhere ?. The Fan is also shown as brushless three phase.

[HughF]

https://electricaldealsdirect.co.uk/air-conditioning-centre-6-kw-air-source-heat-pump-super-inverter-system-ahp60.html

 

£1900 gets you the 8kW version

 

Specs (sort of):

http://www.airconditioningcentre.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/ACC-Brochure-2018-SMALL.pdf

AHP60Spec.pdf

Edited April 25, 2022 by HughF

[JohnMo]

@Jenki

Did you end up buying one of these heat pumps?

[Jenki]

1 hour ago, JohnMo said:

@Jenki

Did you end up buying one of these heat pumps?

No.

But more as I changed the plans to heat water for my cabins, I've gone for LPG gas water heaters as I didn't want them to run out of water. And heating the cabins with an Air 2 Air HP.

Still thinking about these for the house but that's not starting till next year.

[Jenki]

UPDATE:

So I bit the bullet on one of these units chatted the to guy who owns the company and got a good deal, £1140 Inc vat delivered to the Highlands, 

 

 

 

The unit comes with a controller, that is pre wired to the PCB, 4 wires on a detachable lead. the instructions show the connections  / setup I'm planning to use. 

My Setup is a pre plumbed cylinder with tank and buffer.  I've connected the buffer on the return to the ASHP. so ASHP - to UFH manifold - TO Buffer - back to ASHP, just using the buffer for volume.

The Manual is "Chineslish"  so takes a bit of reading, but in general it seems to do as required.

 

The controller can work in DHW and heat / cool mode. and this diagram suggest all is as it should be.  

There is a section in the manual that explains the importance of the  tank probe  (A) (I assumed this would be a thermistor) and how to fit, but doesn't mention how this connects to the ASHP.

 

Fast forward to unboxing, the unit is well made, the casing etc isn't thin and flimsy. the powder coating looks decent and is inside as well. and it looks like it should do what it should do, so this is the good bit 🥲.

There is the controller and wire, some feet. and that's it. no tank sensor..

Looking at the control panel this is what I get.

L,N &E in, LN&E for pump output, but this is connected to the internal pump, so safe to assume this will be energised when the unit is running.   there is not any control for AUX pump or 3 way valve as per manual.

 

I ask the questions:

1, where / what type of probe do I need, and where does this connect

2, where do I connect the controls for the Valves as shown in fig4.4 above.

 

After a week the response back from the supplier via the manufacturer is  "You don't need a tank sensor, its controlled by the input temp / output temp of the unit."

 

I counter with, The Controller has error codes (E20) and a display for the tank temperature (o1), also how do I control the valve?

 

a bit more back and forth and they say the unit only does 1 temperature, and you can control valves with external relays etc...? 

 

now I'm thinking there is some mis-communication and language issues here, as the unit must work?. Eventually they tell me they will get a guy to call me, I think at this point they think this is me being  numb, and not knowing what I'm doing. 

 

after a further two weeks, I speak with a guy, who does not work for them, and has not fitted them, but is a ASHP fitter of some 20 years, and ultimately comes to the same conclusion as me - it should have a tank probe, and there should be some way of communicating with the unit to differentiate between DHW and heating.

 

Unless anyone here can see what I'm missing, and how to get this unit to work,  it looks like I'm going to try and send it back...  so now looking for an alternative.  -- need to get some heat on the static is already Baltic.🥶

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[JohnMo]

Reading between the lines of what you have said, it could be a single flow temperature ASHP. If it is, the flow temp is set on outset to 50 or 55. Basically the min flow temp for DHW. You then use a simple time clock and cylinder stat, to control when DHW is heated. The heat pump then either heats the buffer (control by a thermostat) or DHW. You would operate the buffer at a lower temperature via a thermostat.  Your heating system would just draw from the buffer (piped as a 4 pipe) on a seperate pump which is controlled by room thermostat. Your cylinder and buffer thermostat would tie into P1 and P2 as volt free signal, to stop/start the ASHP similar to a gas boiler.

 

So an older school unit, similar to what @joe90 had. Can work well.

[Jenki]

49 minutes ago, JohnMo said:

Reading between the lines of what you have said, it could be a single flow temperature ASHP. If it is, the flow temp is set on outset to 50 or 55. Basically the min flow temp for DHW. You then use a simple time clock and cylinder stat, to control when DHW is heated. The heat pump then either heats the buffer (control by a thermostat) or DHW. You would operate the buffer at a lower temperature via a thermostat.  Your heating system would just draw from the buffer (piped as a 4 pipe) on a seperate pump which is controlled by room thermostat. Your cylinder and buffer thermostat would tie into P1 and P2 as volt free signal, to stop/start the ASHP similar to a gas boiler.

 

So an older school unit, similar to what @joe90 had. Can work well.

I was thinking this, but  the controller is not dumb, it controls the temperatures, so I don't see how the two could work together.

I don't want to wire  / plumb it in to experiment, it should do what the manual says

[Beelbeebub]

Is this a simple on/off pool unit?

 

In which case isn't it run just like a boiler?

 

All the "logic" is done via the wiring center of the heating system (standard timer, thermostats, 5 wire valves etc) and all the unit gets is on or off signal.

[ProDave]

Can you post pictures of ALL the PCB's inside the unit and all the connectors on them please to see if we can shed any more light on it.

 

If you have an electronic copy of the manual can you post that as well please?

[joe90]

Yes mine was a one temp ASHP which I set to 48’, I had a DHW tank probe and that controlled a diverter valve that directed hot water to the DHW tank not buffer/UFH. 

[Jenki]

On 23/02/2022 at 16:54, Jenki said:

AHP-60 Manual.pdf 1.9 MB · 12 downloads  

There's a couple left, maybe more, offered me a little saving if I bought 2. ?

Here's the Manual.

 

the PCB is difficult to photo as its upside down on the top of the unit. I took this one, but not much help.

 

if you read the manual P12, the unit should operate controlling heat & DHW, it is not supposed to be a dumb unit. 

 

Its like the manual is for a enhanced unit possibly, but there is no mention of other models..

 

so if the controller does work in the way it says is will, then I assume it will give an error as there is no tank sensor, E20 Page 18

 

the wiring diagram on P20 seems to mirror what I have,  the attached photo shows CN21 CN22 which are listed as blank, P1 &P2 wires trace to the PCB @ TH6 so possible should be a thermistor for the tank?

 

Edited November 5, 2023 by Jenki
added info.

[Jenki]

1 hour ago, Beelbeebub said:

Is this a simple on/off pool unit?

 

In which case isn't it run just like a boiler?

 

All the "logic" is done via the wiring center of the heating system (standard timer, thermostats, 5 wire valves etc) and all the unit gets is on or off signal.

It shouldn't be, the controller should control everything.

[ProDave]

I tend to agree.  The manual talks about tank temperature sensor and control of valves etc but then the wiring diagram does not show where they connect to.

 

I would go ahead with your plan to return for a refund as "not as described"

 

I would be tempted to connect power to it and power it up.  It won't run for a whole host of reasons but I would be interested if the controller display matches what is shown in the manual.

[dpmiller]

searching the number on the PCB hints at it being a "world pac" unit. I'd be looking closely at the innards to confirm it's actually an inverter unit- should be another smallish pcb with a big heatsink and some big capacitors on, and there should be a 3-wire connection to the compressor, with no additional starting capacitor

[ProDave]

11 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

'd be looking closely at the innards to confirm it's actually an inverter unit- should be another smallish pcb with a big heatsink and some big capacitors on, and there should be a 3-wire connection to the compressor, with no additional starting capacitor

Good point, there is mention about starting current an mention the compressor may not start if too much cable resistance, suggesting it is not an inverter drive.  More reason to reject it.

[Jenki]

32 minutes ago, dpmiller said:

searching the number on the PCB hints at it being a "world pac" unit. I'd be looking closely at the innards to confirm it's actually an inverter unit- should be another smallish pcb with a big heatsink and some big capacitors on, and there should be a 3-wire connection to the compressor, with no additional starting capacitor

@ProDave mentioned pictures for the pcb. so had another look. its difficult to see as its mounted on part of the frame upside down. there is a large heat sink but to me only one PCB and all the wires go to this. I would have to dismantle a lot of the frame to get a better view of the PCB.  /////im thinking its time to cut my loses and fight for a return and buy a more mainstream product,

@dpmiller, @ProDave thanks for the info, might put a cable to it tomorrow just to see, but going forward, I'm pushing for a return.

 

[SteamyTea]

[Jenki]

Update,

After some back and forth the fact is this unit is setup for 1 temperature, so ideal for UFH.  It doesn't do half the things the manual says it does.

It does not have an input for temperature.

 

It does not have any other outputs that can be picked up to use third party controls.

 

It does have an on off option, but not sure what the control panel will actually do.

 

 Could I use it at a set temperature e.g. 46 Deg, and heat the DHW and Buffer to this temp, controling with a standard 2 channel programmer.?  not sure, but then what efficiencies would this  produce.

 

I've still not got confirmation I can return yet, I think I'll have to pay return carriage at least

.🥲

So will push for a return and see what unfolds.

 

[ProDave]

That is very disappointing to hear it is not as described.  Do keep us posted.

[Beelbeebub]

Assuming you bought online/over the phone the distance selling regs apply and you have a bunch of rights.

 

You can cancel your order *for any reason* up to 14 days from delivery for a full refund including shipping.

 

I'd the item is faulty you have 6 months to return it even if you've altered it. You don't have to pay shipping.

 

The item not being as described, would be faulty - ie if it says it has inverter drive and doesn't etc

 

It sounds like a bit of a lemon TBH 

 

https://www.gov.uk/accepting-returns-and-giving-refunds